Gen 7 or FAST, which to chose?

[PontiacPaul]

OK, guys, first time to post on this particuliar board but you all seem have the best info on ECUs.

What I am trying to determine is what features I need to succesfully go EFI on a turbo pontiac 400 (real pontiac).

Do I need IAC, do I need to be sequential, etc.?

My next question is which ECU is best for my application and why, i.e. Gen 7 or FAST (or something else).

Thanks,

-paul

 

[vtec4gs]

I'd suggest the FAST with sequential setup only because of
1) simplicity to use
2) this is the page to be to get help with it, i.e. Craig Smith is always here giving 200% and pretty much answers any questions you may have.

As for the DFI 7 (which I have installed and tuned BTW - m,y specialty being 4 banger Hondas), its not for the regular Joe Schmoe, and is not as user friendly as the FAST system, not to mention the fact that you don;t see Job Spotter (jr. or sr.) here on this board helping as much as Craig does

I learned the FAST system in a matter of the first 5 times I used it, I've also used other EMS and by far this one is VERY user friendly, not taking rocket science into account.

Greg

 

[PontiacPaul]

As a programmer I am sure I can figure the software out (I say this without ever seeing it tho). As for going sequential, don't I require a cam sensor or something like that? I currently have a MSD crank trigger (flying magnet) right now with holley pro annihilator 800-300.

-paul

 

[vtec4gs]

well for my Honda 4 bangers, I need the fire trigger for each cylinder and a trigger to show when to reset (i.e. TDC)

for your pontiac, not sure how but you may need two trigger wheels, one for crank angle and other to trigger cam at TDC ... maybe Craig or Bob can help you ...

Greg

 

[86brick]

EFI with a turbo Pontiac 400

The only turboed Pontiac car I know of is Rodney Butler's '65 GTO which has a 440ci twin turbo motor.... He is using an Indian Adventures "Chief Many Horses" iron block (which is the strongest Pontiac block I know of) with Edelbrock heads, custom turbo grind solid roller cam, and a pair of PT-88 turbos.... He is using a Sequential FAST system with 160lb injectors and big old Weldon pumps.... I don't know your goals or how much horsepower you want to make, but I'm sure the FAST system would be the best considering Rodney made 1200hp on pump gas and 1800hp on race gas with 25lbs of boost (they think it will make 2100hp with 30lbs of boost) with the FAST system.... Maybe you should call and speak with Jim Butler of Jim Butler Performance cause he does many high horsepower Pontiac EFI V8s.... Here is a link to his website http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/index.html
HTH

 

[LinearX]

Originally posted by PontiacPaul
OK, guys, first time to post on this particuliar board but you all seem have the best info on ECUs.

What I am trying to determine is what features I need to succesfully go EFI on a turbo pontiac 400 (real pontiac).

Do I need IAC, do I need to be sequential, etc.?

My next question is which ECU is best for my application and why, i.e. Gen 7 or FAST (or something else).

Thanks,

-paul

IAC is not a necessity. I've a friend with a turbo Mustang and he's not using one. Just adjusts the A/F to get it to idle without one.

Sequential isn't really 100% necessary unless you're after then nth degree of power. I've got a friend that's run a 10.02 @ 136mph with batch fire. Sequential is nice, however.

As far as which ECU is best for your situation, research is the only thing that will tell you that. There are several things that each system has going for it.

F.A.S.T. is widely known in the racing world, and odds are that if you go to a track and have a question, you can probably find someone that can help you out with little effort. Gen7 isn't as widely used that I can tell right now.

Gen7 has a few features that I think are really cool. You can go from batch to sequential just by changing a setting in the software. No new box to buy. It also has the ability to learn new sensors. If you have a sensor, O2 for example, go bad on your F.A.S.T. system, you have to call up and give them a number off your ECU. They send you a new sensor and a disk that is the calibration file for the sensor. You have to load this or the sensor won't function correctly. With Gen7, just buy a new sensor and put it on. It auto calibrates to the new sensor.

In the end, you probably can't go wrong with either one. I'm sure as Gen7 grows in popularity (which is may not) you'll be able to find help with it. Either way, you'll make a gob of power with either setup. I'd say find the one that best fits your needs and budget and blast.

 

[64duece]

Abit more info

Here's a couple bits of info.

You don't need IAC. You can set the idle with the throttle blades if you want.

How much power you expecting to make? Big injectors need sequential to allow it to idle decent. I've run batch fire with 65lb/hr on 400SBC's. It was a little rich @ idle.

The WBO2 is required.

The FAST is certainly more popular. Be sure to go through a reputable shop that will support you. Once the tuneup is done, your done. I run Holley's Commander 950 on my SBC making about 700hp. It's plain, batchfire, uses WBO2 and works.

 

[PontiacPaul]

I am shooting for 800hp at the crank. Engine is 467 pontiac with most likely a ProCharger (decided that would be easier than a turbo or tt setup). Aluminum e-heads are going to put me just under 10:1 compression. I want to run pump gas so I will use an intercooler if I need it.

-paul

 

[64duece]

Now we're getting somewhere

You'll be fine with batch or bank to bank. 65lb/hr @ .6 BSFC and 90% duty cycle will support 800hp. Be sure to get s good fuel pump.

I run a Procharger on my 358" SBC. It's an intercooled D-1 setup making almost 700hp. Your gonna need a bigger unit, a D-1R should do it.

Here's some info for you

http://geocities.com/64duece/

http://pontiacdude.cc/

 

[bobc455]

For the FAST sequential, some of the Buick guys have machined their front covers to put a cam sensor where their fuel pump used to go - I don't know the mechanics of the Pontiac motor, so I can't guess how you'd add a cam sensor. But I think you'll be fine with bank-to-bank anyhow.

The only sensor that requires a calibration disk on FAST is the O2 sensor- the rest are off-the-shelf sensors. And from what I've heard, the O2 sensor is very reliable - my personal experience is the same. You don't hear about many bad O2 sensors.

If you're gonna be running that kinda boost on pump gas, I would definately make sure you get the knock sensor- most dealers offer that as an option, and it would be worth the investment for you.

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

 

[PontiacPaul]

With a mechanical cam I don't think I can run a knock sensor. I spoke with Rodney from JBP (Jim's son and the EFI guru there) and he helped me with alot fo the questions I had.

Thanks guys for the info.

-paul

 

[LinearX]

Originally posted by bobc455
The only sensor that requires a calibration disk on FAST is the O2 sensor- the rest are off-the-shelf sensors. And from what I've heard, the O2 sensor is very reliable - my personal experience is the same. You don't hear about many bad O2 sensors.

I agree that the O2 sensors don't go bad very often, however when they do it stinks. I've witnessed cars that won't run when trying to just use a different O2 sensor from someone.

I've got a friend that's run for several years on the same O2 sensor he got with the kit. I think it's not all that big of a deal, but some people are dead set against the way F.A.S.T. requies a disk to recalibrate.

 

[TurboJim]

Once everything is set up, you can really take the O2 OUT, and run open loop. Except you wont have the safety net that closed loop provides.

 

[PontiacPaul]

TurboJim,

You mean open loop all the time once it is tuned?

-paul

 

[TurboJim]

Yeeeup.

Once your VE table is set with minimal/no correction, just put the car in open loop, remove the O2, plug the hole, and drive it. Only drawback, is if something is on its way, you'll never know because you wont be able to see it on the corrections. Like I said, you lose that "safety net" that closed loop provides. But if you use an EGT, you'll probably catch a problem before it IS a problem.

 

[sinister]

Gen 7 vs. FAST

All the above are great coments in the favore of both systems. We use alot of the gen 7 stuff and have had good luck with tuneability and reliability. The IAC is a must for a street car.(w/autotrans) The other nice thing is you can run Gen7 in sequental, batch, bank to bank or TBI with one system. FAST has 3 diferent boxs to do this. Accel also has a dual sink dist. to run to system in the sequn. mode without the use of both crank triger and dist. There are many other pros to go with the Gen7 and we would love to help if we can.


charlie@adc-racing.com
ADC Racing Engines
970-482-1927

 

[TwinTurboIroc]

Re: Gen 7 vs. FAST

Originally posted by sinister
The IAC is a must for a street car.(w/autotrans)

charlie@adc-racing.com
ADC Racing Engines
970-482-1927

i disagree, its in the tuning. The only time that a IAC with an auto trans is beneficial is when the thing is DEAD cold and you have to hold the pedal a bit. Otherwise it idles fine. JMO

 

[sinister]

Your IROC must not have AC, PW, or any other idle altering accsories. We have done quite a few of the FAST, Motec, Accel, Haltec and the list goes on and on and on. If you have a "real street car" and don't want to mess with it, use the IAC.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by sinister
Your IROC must not have AC, PW, or any other idle altering accsories. We have done quite a few of the FAST, Motec, Accel, Haltec and the list goes on and on and on. If you have a "real street car" and don't want to mess with it, use the IAC.

I dont really wanna start a debate, but how in gods name did we have cars the didnt stall when they used carbs!?!

Oh yea, run a slightly richer AF, and give it a couple degrees.

If you HAVE an iac, use it. If you dont, deal with getting it to not stall under load. I'm sure it can be done, just like it USED TO.

 

[TwinTurboIroc]

Originally posted by TurboJim
I dont really wanna start a debate

thats why i didn't respond