general STAGE questions

[all4gss]

I've been looking around at some stage stuff and have come across a few things that aren't quite clear. first of all... on-center vs. off-center. on or off center of what? and what parts arent interchangeable between on/off center blocks, and what are the advantages of each? will a stage II on center NASCAR type intake fit on an offcenter Stage block.

Stage heads. Can stock heads be bolted on to a Stage I block? can stage heads also be bolted on a Stage I block, how about a stock 109 block?

any help is appreciated.. and if you can point me to some more info about stage stuff i'd appreciate it... i've been surfing gnttype.org so far.. thanks.

Keith

 

[KendallF]

Originally posted by all4gss
I've been looking around at some stage stuff and have come across a few things that aren't quite clear. first of all... on-center vs. off-center. on or off center of what? and what parts arent interchangeable between on/off center blocks, and what are the advantages of each? will a stage II on center NASCAR type intake fit on an offcenter Stage block.

Stage heads. Can stock heads be bolted on to a Stage I block? can stage heads also be bolted on a Stage I block, how about a stock 109 block?

any help is appreciated.. and if you can point me to some more info about stage stuff i'd appreciate it... i've been surfing gnttype.org so far.. thanks.

Keith

Stock blocks and earlier Stage blocks are off-center. That is, the rod journal does not center on the bore of the cylinder. Therefore, the rod has an offset to center the piston in the bore. When horsepower started increasing in the Stage applications, this became a problem, and the block was revised by shifting the bores to eliminate the offset rod requirement.

Therefore, the intake had to be revised to shift the port alignment, and the rods are obviously unique. The on-center blocks, except for a few early castings, were also all dry sump. Cranks, heads, and most other accessories remain the same. Accessory brackets and cam gears on on-center blocks require some re-alignment.

An on-center intake will not fit on an off-center block without modification. Stock heads can be bolted on a Stage 1 (or 2, for that matter; see the current thread about plugging extra bolt holes for an 8 bolt head application). Stage II heads can be bolted on a Stage 1 block as long as the extra head bolt holes have been drilled. Stage II heads will physically bolt onto a stock block with 8 bolts but the stock block doesn't have the meat for the extra bolts, nor the strength to build a combination to take advantage of those heads.

For more info, surf the threads in the Stage forum here and also the Stage forum at www.turbobuicks.com.

 

[all4gss]

thanks, and more questions

that makes sense... thanks for the heads up Kendall. Next question: Does it make sense to build a motor for street/strip use out of a stage components. It almost seems that to get the full potential out of the stage motor one would have to go to such extremes that it would take away most, if not all driveablitly.

There's nothing wrong with extreme. But would it make more sense to have a street/strip car with stock components and then use stage components for an all out strip brawler?

this is a great wealth of information, and i'm glad i stumbled on to it... awesome forum.

Thanks

Keith

 

[GNSCOTT]

define drivability...everyone has thier own opinion. There are a bunch of stage cars on the streets.

 

[all4gss]

drivability

true, it's very objective... Originally the plan was to have a car that would get 22 mpg and turn consistant 12's... after researching these turbo buick engines, it seems this is rather easy to do. So i'm looking to push the envelope a little. I guess my main concern with stage motors as opposed to stock would be they seem to move alot more air... i'd be concerned with street mpg and things like turbo lag etc. I suppose for street use though you can tune these things out.

Are all Stage I blocks off-center? and what would one expect to pay for a Stage I block? thanks

Keith Grant

 

[S2V6RACER]

All stage 1 blocks are off-center. Its seems that for what these sell for, I'd step up to the stage 2 block and be done with it.

You need to understand that the stage 1 blocks have cast 2 bolt mains versus all steel main caps(castings 1985 and later) with 4 bolt center caps on the stage 2. The 2 bolt mains are the weak link in the combo. The stage 1 blocks only come machined with 8 bolt provisions, but 14 bolt provisions can be added.

Factor in the typical steel cap installation and line bore job on a stage 1 block and you'll see its almost apples for apples.

Stage 2 blocks have some additonal revisions done to the oiling system which the stage 1 cannot match. It just makes logical sense if your budget allows.

You can use the internal pickup (custom made) with a wet sump stage 2 block which really is the only obstacle you need to work with.

This just hits a few of the points.

 

[RealFastV6]

I'd just like to throw out the obvious on the streetability thing since its a hot topic all the time...

A Stage 2 T70Q GN1/MA headed car with a Hyd Billet Roller will be just as streetable as a Stock Block T70Q GN1/MA headed car with a Hyd Billet Roller (If not MORE streetable with the extra cubes) and will be able to push 10.0s all day long without fear of splitting your crank in half.

If you're going to take on a Stage project, just be COMPLETELY honest with yourself about when/where you'll drive it and build accordingly.

Just my .0002 cents (I'm poor)

 

[WhoNds8]

I've also been pondering the idea of a gradual Stage II build-up or just build the spare turbo motor I have with caps and a girdle, but I am in no real hurry I guess. I guess I am wondering the same type of questions as all4gss is.....

So if I were to build one I should look for a Stage 2 off-center style block?

And extra cubes were mentioned....isn't it still considered a 3.8?

Or do you just bore it out to make it a 4.1?

Or do they use a different crank to stroke it to a 4.1? 274 right?

What are the mods needed to put an intake on these things?

Also heads? Anything special to look for?

Are there different types of castings?

As far as cranks....are buick motorsports cranks a good piece to have?

I guess the main question is what exactly should we look for?

I've searched through the threads and found some opinions, but I would like a little more fact as to what would work. I am thinking one day I would like to build something that could dependably run in the low 10's at least engine wise maybe high 9's , and were talkin 700-750 hp to put a full weight GN to those #'s. I am the type of guy that would like to try and do it right the first time and I am picky about things I put on my car as well. And yes this would still be a street car,but really just a toy. So just occasionaly driven but not on 500 mile trips, so basically a bada$$ toy. So PLEASE Stage II guru's help a brother out for a future project and decision. Thanks

 

[Turbo231]

I would start building a Stage II short block.
Off center if you can, so you have more choices later.
Start rounding up the parts for the lower end, they take a while to locate and cost big $$. If it were me and I was building a new complete motor to swap in one day I would go with Stage II heads, but if you go off center you still have a choice. You can get a set cheaper than aftermarket, the rockers are cheaper, and they are a known good product. Sounds like you and I think alike, I only drive mine a few times a year(cruise nights) just to clean off the rice .
So my vote is for a large cube full StageII with a soild roller between 230-240 deg and a large turbo for Maximum rice devistation

 

[S2V6RACER]

Originally posted by Turbo231
I would start building a Stage II short block.
Off center if you can, so you have more choices later.

Your choices are not any different with a on-center engine. Actually, you have more choices given the availability of rods and blocks available.

The only choice you will make is what intake manifold you buy(CAS, BGC,or modified stock). I have a modified stock intake, so I feel if you have no parts on-center is the way to go. Just keep your eyes open for them to pop up.

It is easier to build a off-center, as you do not have to get into the issues involved with a on-center, but parts will be more plentifull for a long time to come.

On-center blocks, rods are cheaper.

 

[gnxtc2]

What HP level is Buick Motorsport crank good for?

Does a Buick Motorsport crank fit both on-center and off-center blocks?

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[S2V6RACER]

Yes, the crank will fit both blocks.

I would assume a Motorsports crank is good to at 1200 HP.

Billet is only about 15% stronger.

I'm sure Billy Anderson would know more of the limits, as well as Kenny Dutweiler.

 

[QuickWrench]

Guys, this is a great forum...

What are the known differences in on-center S2 blocks? I do know that some have differing numbers of cross-bolted mains, while some have none at all.

Also, are there any S2 heads that stand out positively or negatively? Any known junk...or gems in certain castings?

 

[WhoNds8]

Who does all the Stage II work then in the central area? IL to be exact, or surrounding states? I mean machining and setting up a stage block? Somone who knows how to do it right, no cutting corners or anything like that. I'm also interested in the major differences between blocks myself? Is it just basically parts availability to choose one from the other?

 

[S2V6RACER]

Dan Strenzo at PTE can build you a motor. I haven't heard any negative comments about him. He'll be doing my work from now on. Only problem is it's a 5 hour drive from here.