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GN Hot Side Sizes Compared to Mine (Lots O Pictures!)

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CMac455

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2010
Messages
36
For those that care to help me out, this is on a 1989 Thunderbird SC. It's a 3.8L v6 motor. I was wanting to know how your cars would respond to a setup like mine and what you would expect out of it.

The headers are 1.75" to a 2.5" merge collector. The tubing to the Y-Collector is 2.5" and the Y-Collector is formed to a T4 flange. The turbo is a Precision 6765 billet with a .96 A/R, journal bearing, and the H-Cover (.75 A/R). Downpipe is 3.5".

The heads flow 240cfm and the cam I'm running is 256/260 duration, .600" lift, and on a 114 LSA at .050" lift.

What RPM do you guys expect the turbo to spool at? Also, I'm sure people run the same turbo I have. What power are people making with it?

Thanks for your guy's help.

Here are pictures of my build:

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Im not much help for the answer you are looking for but that is a pretty badass build. How much boost do you plan on running? I would be taking a shot in the dark here but If you are running 24+ psi I would expect 750 crank hp but possibly more with the 4 bolt on that turbo.
 
Good luck to you. Those Ford 3.8L engines had a hard enough time keeping head gaskets in them naturally aspirated.

Should be an interesting build.
 
Your setup looks very nice.
I can tell you though, if the motor is still a 231 or even 235 for that matter, you going to need either a high stall converter to get that turbo spooled fast, or you need to step down on the turbine housing size. But if the car is a 5 speed, it's going to take high rpms to launch the car hard.

Couple of questions and things I see first.

- Is that a -4 AN oil feed line or a -6?
If it's a -6, you need to step that down to a -4AN or the turbo will be over fed with oil and you could possibly experience some leaking issues.

- Is the oil return line a -10 AN size?

- I highly recommend, before you run this setup, that you rotate your PW46 wastegate away from the motor. The discharge does not need to blow directly onto your motor. Otherwise there is potential for a fire. Nothing like 1500* + exhaust temps blasting out of the wastegate directly onto your motor and fuel lines. Unless of course you plan on making a discharge pipe to route your wastegate exhaust back into your downpipe.

This turbo has a rating of 900 flywheel hp capability, however, with not only your setup, but also on the Buick V6 setups, we can not run the boost high enough to realistically attain this power level. So on Buick applications, I have been saying it can support roughly 845-860 flywheel hp maxed out at the boost levels we can run. (up to 32psi typically before we start to have head gasket issues)

On your setup, with the .96 A/R housing, your spool up is probably going to be in the mid to high 4000 range, being a journal bearing turbo. Running a smaller A/R will dramatically lower the spool time, if the car is a manual. If it's an automatic, then I would be looking to spec the converter to stall somewhere in the 4200 range to start, if running that housing. The .96 housing will give you the best flow possible, as it is the largest turbine housing we make for this turbo, but it is typically reserved for larger CI V6's or V8's under 400 CI.
Here are the part numbers that you need to know if you decide to change the turbine housing.


TH6865A is our .68 A/R housing for your turbo. Honestly, this is the housing I would have spec'd for this combo. Especially if it's going to be more of a street car with moderate boost levels. Moderate meaning 15-25psi.

TH8165A is our .81 A/R housing for your turbo. I would have spec'd this housing, if this were to be a track only car and you were looking to run the boost north of 25psi at all times.

TH9665A should be the turbine housing you have now. It should say .96 on the outside of the casting, just above the T4 inlet flange. The actual part number will be behind one of the turbine housing to chra clamps, cnc cut into the turbine housing itself.

If this were my car, I would order the TH6865A turbine housing and install it now. Keeping the .96 A/R housing for later if you plan on drag racing this car and running the turbo at close to maximum potential. I would also run some form of back pressure monitoring device, whether it be a simple home made boost gauge with a check valve, or a 0-100psi pressure sensor that feeds a Race pack or electronic boost gauge with memory. Our rule of thumb with back pressure to boost pressure is, once you've reached a 2:1 ratio of back pressure to boost pressure, you need to make a change to the combination and or turbo. (Ex: 60psi of back pressure measured just before the inlet of the turbine housing and 30psi of boost at the intake is the 2:1 ratio) This housing would be the most street friendly as well.
We sell all three of these housings for $229.00 each.
Hope some of this helps and sorry to ramble on so long.

Patrick
 
Sharp eyes, Patrick! Nice fab job on the headers. I've always heard these were a Ford clone of our motors - any chance the intake would actually bolt up to our heads? I'm curious if that runner/plenum would flow better for us, or if one of ours would flow better for you :-).
 
Thanks a bunch for your guy's help and encouragement. There are a lot of successful GN guys here, so I appreciate it.

I know Dick Bradshaw from Bulldog Performance, and I have seen a couple of patterns for the GN stuff. They have identical aesthetics, but I'm not sure if the dimensions are the same. Of course there are going to be differences, though.

Patrick,

I appreciate the rambling. It seems as if I can never get a thorough enough answer for questions that I may have and you nailed everything I wanted to know. Hard to do since I'm going to be an engineer :0).

I am running a -4AN feed line and a -10AN drain. Also, I made an open dump tube that runs straight down to the k-member. I'm definitely not trying to turn my motor into a casting foundry, haha.

I was originally wanting to run a .81 A/R, but the dealer I used talked me into a .96 A/R. I am building a shortblock, very soon, which will make it a 264 CI motor. I was sizing to turbo so that I can grow into it, but as you suggested, I have determined it may spool late. It will be a drag strip car more than I will drive it on the street, but it will definitely still see the street. Another Thunderbird SC guy put a .68 AR on his car and it was an instant spool, so my mindset was that the turbine housing was undersized; therefore, I should be able to run a larger turbine housing.

Also, my goals are to run low boost on the street and high boost at the track.
 
Here's an update with pictures. http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa258/CMac455/Turbo Project/

I just got it running yesterday and started playing with tuning today. I was surprised by how quickly it was spooling. I saw 18 PSI by 3600 RPM. Yes, I'm sure it's a .96 AR, too.

One thing I'm confused about is I'm using the PW46 as a wastegate and I put the green and yellow spring in it. That should be 12 PSI and I'm seeing 18 or so. I supposed I'll just swap out springs until I get the minimal boost that I want. I was running this off of wastegate only, by the way.

Any thoughts?
 
very interesting build! R u a member on any of the v6 ford forums? What have you done to the bottom end? Who did your heads? Fuel mods?
Im thinking about goin with the 71hpq with my built 3.8 in the near future.
btw my car has been boosted for two years now and never had a problem with hg! I even pulled the head off one time, reused the torque to yield bolts and hg with no problems for a season on 20psi.
 
very interesting build! R u a member on any of the v6 ford forums? What have you done to the bottom end? Who did your heads? Fuel mods?
Im thinking about goin with the 71hpq with my built 3.8 in the near future.
btw my car has been boosted for two years now and never had a problem with hg! I even pulled the head off one time, reused the torque to yield bolts and hg with no problems for a season on 20psi.

I'm on v6power.net and sccoa.com as CMac89. I haven't done anything with the bottom end, yet. I'm in the process of that right now. I ported the heads and had BES Racing do the machine work. They flow about 240CFM. I'm using an Aeromotive A1000 external fuel pump/regulator as fuel mods.

I still have factory replacement Fel-Pro Composite head gaskets with ARP studs. I blew the headgaskets, whenever I had the factory blower on it, but that's because I maxed the injectors out, haha.

MLS gaskets are the best!
 
I'm on v6power.net and sccoa.com as CMac89. I haven't done anything with the bottom end, yet. I'm in the process of that right now. I ported the heads and had BES Racing do the machine work. They flow about 240CFM. I'm using an Aeromotive A1000 external fuel pump/regulator as fuel mods.

I still have factory replacement Fel-Pro Composite head gaskets with ARP studs. I blew the headgaskets, whenever I had the factory blower on it, but that's because I maxed the injectors out, haha.

MLS gaskets are the best!

lol yeah they are!! One thing i dont know how much that a1000 is gonna support for you. On dads v6 turbo it maxed out at 520hp thru an auto. Even had a buddy w a v8 that maxed it out at around the same hp level. Just something to think about when you start cranking up the boost.
BTW who does your tuning?
 
I'm on v6power.net and sccoa.com as CMac89. I haven't done anything with the bottom end, yet. I'm in the process of that right now. I ported the heads and had BES Racing do the machine work. They flow about 240CFM. I'm using an Aeromotive A1000 external fuel pump/regulator as fuel mods.

I still have factory replacement Fel-Pro Composite head gaskets with ARP studs. I blew the headgaskets, whenever I had the factory blower on it, but that's because I maxed the injectors out, haha.

MLS gaskets are the best!

lol yeah they are!! One thing i dont know how much that a1000 is gonna support for you. On dads v6 turbo it maxed out at 520hp thru an auto. Even had a buddy w a v8 that maxed it out at around the same hp level. Just something to think about when you start cranking up the boost.
BTW who does your tuning?
 
lol yeah they are!! One thing i dont know how much that a1000 is gonna support for you. On dads v6 turbo it maxed out at 520hp thru an auto. Even had a buddy w a v8 that maxed it out at around the same hp level. Just something to think about when you start cranking up the boost.
BTW who does your tuning?

I know people making over 800rwhp with the A1000. You have to run the right size lines and have a sufficient feed to the pump, as well. My friend's neon made 610whp with an A1000. I'm hoping to make 650rwhp, or so.

I do all of my tuning using Binary Editor and a QuarterHorse datalogging chip, for Moates. Nice stuff for EEC-IV tuning.
 
Crankshaft

I believe that Ford was using the supercharged 3800 series 2 as there "strawman".Their major problem (I thought) was they got cheap with the crankshaft and did not cast & machine rolled fillets.
 
I believe that Ford was using the supercharged 3800 series 2 as there "strawman".Their major problem (I thought) was they got cheap with the crankshaft and did not cast & machine rolled fillets.

The supercharged supercoupe got a forged crankshaft, in contrast to the 3.8L mustang and 4.2L f150 cranksahfts, however the 3.8 mustang and 4.2L f150 OEM crankshafts have been proven at 690rwhp. Not sure where the limits of that or the block are at this point.
 
The supercharged supercoupe got a forged crankshaft, in contrast to the 3.8L mustang and 4.2L f150 cranksahfts, however the 3.8 mustang and 4.2L f150 OEM crankshafts have been proven at 690rwhp. Not sure where the limits of that or the block are at this point.

Nailed it!

Once we start figuring out where the limits of the blocks are, we can fill them with block hardener. I'm doing that just to prevent issues and gain some HP. Cylinders move around, a lot, with factory castings. Block hardener stiffens everything up nicely.

Thanks for the props, slinger!
 
You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, Here is a friends 3.8 (ford) turbo powered mustang.

1995 Coupe Specifications - Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords Magazine

I helped him some on the first budget turbo build. I think he replaced most of the stuff I built when he went to a bigger turbo. Looks like you are going down the same road Matt has already been down. Eventually head gasket sealing will be your problem. I think the deck surface on the factory head castings is too thin to deal with big cylinder pressure. That combined with small head bolts is going to give you fits.
 
You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, Here is a friends 3.8 (ford) turbo powered mustang.

1995 Coupe Specifications - Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords Magazine

I helped him some on the first budget turbo build. I think he replaced most of the stuff I built when he went to a bigger turbo. Looks like you are going down the same road Matt has already been down. Eventually head gasket sealing will be your problem. I think the deck surface on the factory head castings is too thin to deal with big cylinder pressure. That combined with small head bolts is going to give you fits.

sorry to correct you but matt has been running a 4.2l for a while now....
yes at this point hes up to a 76mm turbo. I havent talked to him in a while to see if he ever found out his problems that he was having.
His car has been an inspiration to a lot of us in the ford v6 world.
Ive decided to keep my motor a 3.8l for now and see where the limits are. Ive maxed out the 61mm turbo and am looking bigger to make more power. HAHA we wil c how that goes
 
sorry to correct you but matt has been running a 4.2l for a while now....
yes at this point hes up to a 76mm turbo. I havent talked to him in a while to see if he ever found out his problems that he was having.
His car has been an inspiration to a lot of us in the ford v6 world.
Ive decided to keep my motor a 3.8l for now and see where the limits are. Ive maxed out the 61mm turbo and am looking bigger to make more power. HAHA we wil c how that goes


The only difference between the ford 3.8 and 4.2 is the crank (blocks are the same as I understand). The buick 3.8 vs 4.1 on the other hand is a difference in bore size. Matt's motor is a 3.8 mustang block and a 4.2 crank. I worked with him at Delk when he put the motor together.

I talked to him a few weeks ago and he hasn't touched his car lately. 1/2" head studs are really the only other step he can take to try and seal the cylinder pressure until someone develops an aftermarket head with a thicker deck. He talks about selling it all and building a 5.4 4v mod motor, but I hate to see that happen. I'm suprised with how far he has pushed the basically stock parts. I thought he would have pushed the rods out of that motor a long time ago, but it's held together fairly well.
 
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