Grand National or LS1 F-Body???

[whitehot84]

21K ????? I don't have that in my whole car and am in the 10's. The only mods to the suspension are a large rear sway bar and air bags. Can you say $200.
We really are talking apples and oranges here. The TR is the easiest and cheapest to build.
I love the syling of the ls1 and stock they are monsters, but if you mod them you have to build the tranny and the rear end or your throwing money to the wind. That's on top of your 21K.

 

[72firebird]

21K ????? I don't have that in my whole car and am in the 10's. The only mods to the suspension are a large rear sway bar and air bags. Can you say $200.
We really are talking apples and oranges here. The TR is the easiest and cheapest to build.
I love the syling of the ls1 and stock they are monsters, but if you mod them you have to build the tranny and the rear end or your throwing money to the wind. That's on top of your 21K.

so you're saying a stock 200r4 is gunna hold your 10 second passes? The price for the trannies are about equal as far as having them built to hold the power. You guys really need to see where the LS1 community has gone in just the last year.

 

[turbosam6]

Uh, my car would probably run 10's after the turbo setup...........in reverse! We're talking 8 second power here if hooked up properly. Getting an LS1 in the 10's is actually pretty easy, and cheap (relatively speaking) but once you wanna go faster than mid 9's in a somewhat heavy car the money gets big. Thats true of any car though. My car was running 10's when the previous owner had it, and he had maybe $5K in the whole deal. I redid stuff for reliability. I updated the stock rear to a 12 bolt, rebuilt the tranny, and made it hook better. That 1.70 60' in my sig is crawlin' compared to what it'll do now. But I haven't sprayed it on the new suspension to really see what it'll do.

The major hurdle you guys are forgetting is the fact that most TR's out there aren't in factory fresh condition and will need many repairs and upgrades first. Both cars are awesome, and I will always love TR's, but the LS1 is a better and stronger platform to build on.

I really think $21K is a good deal for the power I'd get, and let me remind you, thats streetable power, not 116 octane track only tempermental power. Yes, it would require a TH400, and yes, a good rear end. But don't tell me your stock 200R4 and 10 bolt is gonna take 1000hp with grace either.

Like I said, brand loyalty is blinding people. I don't care, I'd drive an import if they made any real power for a reasonable cost, which they don't. Ok, maybe I wouldn't actually drive an import, but you get the point.....

 

[whitehot84]

so you're saying a stock 200r4 is gunna hold your 10 second passes? The price for the trannies are about equal as far as having them built to hold the power. You guys really need to see where the LS1 community has gone in just the last year.

I don't recall saying my 2004R was stock. I said I had 10 grand in the whole car.
If you know how to spend your money you get more for it.

 

[GNJesse]

...

Well, it sounds like im probably gonna go towards the f-body becasue they seem more reliable. It also seems like a car i can drive everyday, which is what i want. Seems like the trans am with a 6 speed will be waayyyy more fun then a gn. I will miss my GN tho. Ill just have to get another one one of these days. So if any one wants to trade for a real nice gn, let me know.

Jesse

 

[87GN_ponykillr]

The LS1 FBody market has been dropping in price big time, If you can swing yourself to have two toy's look for a 99+ non WS6 T/A. They can be found for under 10K with 70K+ miles. The LS1 is a very strong and dependable motor. You can't go wrong and if you want the "cool hood" you can go aftermarket and save a few G's instead of going for a WS6.

 

[TommyV8]

A friend of mine went 11.17 @ 122 (mid 11's consistently) with the following mods on his 2002 Camaro Z28:
intake (lid)
catback (stock exhaust manifolds and y-pipe)
torque converter (2800 stall speed, pretty conservative, feels stock)
NOS 150 hp dry kit
tuning
sticky tires (ET Street radials)
removed sway bars
The End

How much does all of that cost? He could've run high 11's on the stock converter, I would think.
BTW, he ran 12.5 on the motor the same day as the 11.17 run.

 

[NJVetteGuy]

My '01 C5 went 11.63@115.1 with a stock motor through stock manifolds, cats and pre-cats. Bolt-ons were 4000 stall TC, 3.73s, Vararam and tuning running on ET Streets cutting 1.54 60' times on a stock suspension. Some of you guys need to stop racing dyno sheets and magazine articles and run against some properly built cars at the track. You can run mid 10s in a heads/cam NA C5 with a stock bottom end, and it's been done MANY times by Cartek here in NJ(www.cartek.net). Do your homework before thinking that Buicks are unbeatable, they're not. I bought my GN to break up the monotony of working on LS1s, but the ignorance of so many Buick owners makes me ashamed to be a part of the community sometimes.

 

[rtviper]

vette guy you better take your prozac and calm down lol. This reminds me of the old game whisper into someones ear and pass it on? By the end of game what started out was completely different then at beginning. No one denies the abilities of the chev v8. Most turbo regal owners have indeed raced their cars and dyno sheets are not our basis for information. I have been in the performance auto industry for over 30 years and worked with the best. Anyone who badmouths the buick group must have slipped and hit their head. When I owned vettes and vipers there were good and bad members of both groups. As a whole the buick community has been the most close knit and helpful as a group I have ever been involved with. At the track especially. And I have been involved at our tracks very closely for over 30 years. Like we said very few mass produced cars will run into the 11s and 10s as easy as the turbo buick on the engineering the cars came with from the factory. I have yet to see an instance where another car has run 10s with just upgrades in parts and no additional power adders as the buick has. This includes never having to remove the valve covers on an original stock internals motor?? As far as the ignorance of its supporters I am sure you really dont want to go there with the graduation to LS1 cars for many of the former ricer kiddies. With the much older age group of the buick community I would put thier automotive intelligence up against the ls1 group with no doubt as to the outcome.

 

[NJVetteGuy]

I don't need prozac as you mistakenly may think, I'm just a realist who doesn't need brand loyalty to see what's running the number at the track. I've worked on a lot of LS1 cars, build all my own engines, and put together my own combos. I love my Buicks as much as anyone else here, but I'm realistic about their limits. LS1 parts availability is seemingly endless, especially in comparison to our Buick parts. LS1 cars are so easy to get into the 11s, on a TR you have to spend a decent amount to correct the issues a 20 year old car before you make them quick. You can have an 11 second LS1 f-body for under $2k, contrary to what has been stated in this thread. I know because I've done it on several cars. No race gas required either. It's not my fault if someone else can't put together an inexpensive 11-second combo. I've had my hands in a few 9-second TRs as well, so I'm pretty well versed in both sides of the spectrum. How many LS1s have you worked on?

 

[rtviper]

Well thanks to people like yourself I dont have to work on them and you give me the info that backs up what we have said from the beginning of this thread. You can get a buick into the 11s on the same amount of money according to you? If you have indeed worked on many of both cars I am puzzled about all the deficiencies the buick has to run into the 11s? By the way can you give me a few examples of similar stock setups that have run 10s with an ls1 in the configuration it was produced with? That is stock heads.cams,exhaust manifolds,intake manifolds,tb and bigger injectors, or mufflers ? I took your comment to heart on my not working on ls1 cars and looked in GMHitech magazine to see how their feature cars are doing. Just went through a few pages and saw 18 cars camaro and firebird and only 1 stayed n/a to run a best of 12.4 any car faster then that was using a power adder. Before I bought my buick I looked in mags and read articles also and a high percentage were 12,11 and 10 second cars with minimal mods. Since I was getting old and needed a comfortable car I sold my Viper and bought the buick. At the track I see very very few 9,10 and 11 sec ls powered cars so I guess they are the uniformed owners? Once again not saying it cant be done but its not any easier then the old buick. I also hear from all the honda owners how easy it is to make those cars 10,11 sec cars. In the last 5 years at the track I have seen 1 gutted shell of a car that was 9 and 10 second capable although it never made a clean pass below the 10s. That tells me also its not that easy

 

[turbosam6]

Once again I point you to LS1tech.com, go get an LS1 education. There are guys running VERY low 11's (10 sec. mph) on COMPLETELY STOCK INTERNALS AND NO NITROUS!!! Just bolt ons like exhaust, convertor, airlid, tuning, etc. As to why you aren't seeing 9, 10, and 11 second LS1's at the track, who knows. When I go to the track I see tons.

Trust me when I tell you you are wrong. An LS1 is easier and cheaper to go 11's with. And on pump gas too. My car went 11.45 at 3700 lbs in bad air on drag radials running rich. The car is heavy and certainly would benefit from weight reduction but I like my creature comforts. Its more loaded than most buicks, but I like having something fast that still has street car appeal. Anyone can go fast at 2600 lbs, but thats gonna be a gutted shell of a car. Not impressive.

There are actually quite a few guys running solid 10's on only a cam swap and bolt ons. Cartek has turned out countless 10 second combos and they have recently built a vette with an STS (rear mount) style turbo setup and a built LS1 running low 9's on drag radials. The car has all the options and is 100% street car.

You want examples of completely stock LS1's running 10's? While a couple are very close (11.0-11.1x), can you show me one Tr running 10's all stock? Nope. Its going to take at least a bigger turbo, intercooler, injectors, etc. Most have built motors with cam and ported heads running those times. Yes, one or two guys have busted a 10 second ET with completely stock internals and bigger turbo/ic/injectors, but they aren't the norm, and that 109 block isn't gonna like it for long.

I can point you in the direction of people running 10's with cam swaps only, 11's with stock internals, and even 9's on a stock bottom end with ported heads and cam and no power adder, but will you please show us some 10 second stock internal TR's (and I mean recently, not 10 years ago) or some 11 second stock turbo TR's? Its been done, but I bet I can count them all on one hand.

Go to LS1tech.com. Look for SN SUX2BU, he is running very low 11's at 121.xx with a completely stock motor and bolt ons and N/A. SN The Juggernaut has been 9.9x N/A on pump gas with cam and heads on a stock motor. He went mid 9's cam only on a 150 shot. There are several Chitown street racers who are running impressive times but don't release the information for obvious reasons. I watched an N/A Firehawk go 8.9x last year, setting a record. Several LS1tech.com members are running mid to low 10's with just a cam swap N/A, tell me one TR running 10's with just a cam swap? Its never been done, has it?

Obviously you'll never give up the arguement that TR's are easier to get into the 11's than LS1's, so how about this--The 10's. I dare you to tell me its easier to get a TR in the 10's than an LS1. I know of one 10 second stock internal TR, and thats been many years ago. I can find you many 10 second stock motored nitrous LS1's right now. And most of them are on pump gas and drag radials.

One other thing is its easier to physically run 10's and 11's in an LS1. I don't mean building the car, or buying parts, I mean theres no adjusting, gas swapping, cooling issues, etc. I drive my car at the track in the exact same trim as the street. I put it in drive and mash the pedal. The only thing I sometimes do is mess with tire PSI. Oh, and I click my adjustable shocks a few settings. I never even have to pop the hood. No tools required, except the tire gauge. If I wanna go 10's I do have to fill a bottle. Such a hassle. I even have to flip 2 switches in my glovebox to run 10's. I'm so wore out after all that work I have to take a break. Thats when I sit in the car with the A/C on and stereo up. Friggin' high maintenance race cars........

 

[cool 84]

I hear about these fast for cheap LS1s all the time on the internet. Maybe most of the guys in my area are just slower than average. Either way, in my neck of the woods I didn't lose to a NA heads/cam LS1 with my stock longblock years ago. Several of those guys were friends who saw my mostly stock build (ported intake because the stock hotair intake sucks) and couldn't question that a stock heads/cam GN could outrun a heads/cam LS1 in a 1/4 mile. I'm sure one day I'll get my ass handed to me by an ls1 but I've had pretty good luck so far. And yes, I required racegas to their pump gas.

 

[turbosam6]

For every fast TR or LS1 there probably 3 or 4 slow ones. Its not the cars fault, its the builders fault. I've beaten countless mustangs on the street, but I know there are stangs out there that will flat dust me, I just haven't raced one yet.


As with ANY type of car, there are people going fast and people going slow. When I went to the track I had a buddy with a camaro like mine running near identical times but on stock internals. He was lighter and had a little bigger convertor. Last time we had a little street action down here a guy brought a GN and had a TON of work done to it but it was crawlin'. Maybe a bad tune, maybe something else. Does that mean all GN's with aftermarket ecm, heads, cam, turbo, ic, injectors, exhaust, etc. are slow? No, obviously not.

And any street racer should know it doesn't matter what times you run when you street race, come on now. Last summer I handed a 10 second car its ass on motor in my camaro. Even I was suprised, as I've seen this car run 9's on bottle. How did I win when I run 11's on motor? I outhooked him and he spun a little. Now I have a reputation for beating a car thats been 9's. On the track he whooped my ass. But no one talks about that.

 

[cool 84]

I agree with everything you said. I'm just wondering why I never see these fast cars, then again I mostly street race (on a safe farm road) and that seems to be much different than the track. Another thing I've seen is 3 LS1s blow up on the dyno ~500rwhp. They were all kids running nitrous so maybe it was the tuner's fault and not the car. On the other side of things, I remember bringing my dad's 276" stage II car to the dyno for the first time with a very heavy lope, solid cam clattering and only put down 460hp and 500lbs of torque due to a bad FAST box. I guess my point is there are so many variables from the "norm" that I would have no problem racing a car that is supposed to be faster than me.

 

[turbosam6]

I think the "safe" limit fo the stock bottom end LS1 is around 550-600 rwhp, with a good tune of course. I think alot of guys just throw spray on the car and don't consider checking the A/F ratio or use safety devices with nitrous. I've seen quite a few incorrectly installed nitrous systems, its seems like the easier dry systems are the ones installed wrong the most. Weird, since they are so easy. I'd never consider running a "base" nitrous system, with no window switch, fuel pressure switch, etc. And a W/B is a must on ANY performance car. My car is making around 430 rwhp on motor and has been hit with a 125 shot, so figure roughly 530 on spray. So far so good, and alot of guys have made alot more. The nice thing is the block and crank have proven reliable at the 1000 horsepower level, so you get some good rods and pistons and have a stout shortblock for a low price.

 

[NJVetteGuy]

Looks like TurboSam6 covered everything I was going to reply with

 

[rtviper]

Well I guess I am missing something here? I see a comment the ls1 can run 11s for 2k or just under that. That seems to be plenty of money to get a old t-regal into the 11s so no cost advantage there. I still have not see the stock configuration ls1 into the 10s without removing the valve covers or adding a power adder? That is no cam change no head work no manifold change no exhaust manifold change no tb change no ignition change no trans change or rear end change? yes you can add nos or cam and head work but no one is disputing a large cube v8 has more power potential but that is not what the thread was about. At the track ( here I go again) I see the regals driving to the track and basically stock , yes bigger turbos, injectors, some have stretch coolers running into the mid 11s. Can an ls1 do that,they should and can but is it cheaper and easier? My logic on this is if it is and there are many more of those cars at the track then I should see them? I use this same logic when hearing the ricers talk about all the 9 ,10, 11 sec hondas running the streets. If it is easy to do then it should be commen place at the strip. With the buick cars and they are in the minority everywhere, I can go to one of several tracks in my region and see a few doing just that. This doesnt say the other makes cant do it but its no eaiser to do it or I would see them? Maybe thats my problem, I want to see a few? One of our local buick guys drove about 250 miles to a track in Canada and ran a few 9s with his stock block buick then drove home.

 

[rtviper]

One more thing I live in the Northwest and I dont have to site examples of buicks on this site or cars in Florida or Texas that can do what this discussion is about. I can direct you to one of our several tracks where you can see these cars. Maybe someone will see this thread who lives in the Northwest and jump in and say I have one of these ls1 cars that does all the things we are talking about. I know there are a lot of them out here?

 

[turbosam6]

Your craps gettin' old man. No, no one is running 10's with an LS1 with no internal modifications. Some are very close (11.0x) and have run over 121 mph N/A with no internal mods but again I ask you, show me one TR running 10's with all stock stuff. Its never been done, nor will it.

Also, I wanna see you buy a stock TR and run 11's for $2000. Yes, its been done, but its not that easy. You'll need a turbo, slicks, DP with cutout, injectors, chip, intercooler (or big neck mod), probably a convertor, and you should also have at least a boost gauge and a scan tool would be wise, plus a fuel pump and hotwire kit, and at least a K&N cone filter, and most likely valve springs. Add that up and its over $2K and thats not taking into account that any stock TR is going to need a couple repairs before being 11 second ready.

An LS1 will need slicks, a nitrous kit, an exhaust isn't mandatory but helps, lid, maybe a fuel pump, and whatever mods you want to add with the remaining cash. I'd do a convertor. All that adds up to under $2K. And being at least 11 years newer its less likely to have other issues.

There are plenty of northwest LS1's running good times, but there are also midwest TR's running good times but I RARELY see a TR at the track. Different things are popular in different areas. My local tracks seem to be overrun with mustangs. Does that mean only mustangs are easy to modify? No, they made millions of mustangs, and they are cheap and plentiful. TR's and to a lesser degree LS1 F bodies are harder to find. They also cost more.

You keep saying "If LS1's are so easy to modify and go fast why don't I see more of them?" Mainly because of people like yourself, who are closed minded and inexperienced with them and don't check them out and do some research to see the potential. I've had damn near every type of performance car, nothing compares to my LS1. I tried really hard with my GN to go fast and it just never happened. I won't even talk about the piss poor vendor service I had which only slowed my progress. If the LS1 vendors treated their customers the way I was treated they can and will go out of business. Thats what a little competition does for the aftermarket. I love it, now that I'm thinking of building a stroker motor I have vendors contacting me and giving me quotes and advice. With the buick stuff I felt like I was beating on doors trying to give vendors money and they couldn't care less. More and more TR vendors close down or focus on another type of product/ vehicle because its a dying breed, which is inevitable. Meanwhile, the LSX keeps getting better and the aftermarket is thriving, which means better product development and better prices. Its a win-win situation.

I don't care what you say, since you have zero experience with what you're arguing about your opinion is kinda worthless. Buy an LS1 and then see for yourself. How can you even pretend to know LS1's when you have never even owned one? You don't see me on here talking about Vipers, do you?

Regardless, I will say it again: Buy a stock TR, and a stock LS1. It will be easier and cheaper to go faster in the LS1. Its been proven and will only get easier as people continue to find new ways to build them. And why is Ok for the GN to need a bigger turbo to go 11's but the LS1 can't have nitrous? Jesus, talk about hypocrite! And the N2O kit is cheaper than even a small TE44 turbo!