GT6131bb vs te44, with stock converter on the street

[bison]

Your internal wastegate might be doing its just, but they arent as good as external gates, plain and simple. Why else would they be used for high horsepower applications and internal gates arent?

Search google for external gates and quicker spool, Im sure you will find something. Search Subaru and Evo forums and you will see its common knowledge, Ive even seen datalogs to show that boost builds quicker. Who to call? Titan Motorsports, AMS, Boost Logic, Full Race... hell, ask Precision Turbo. They will tell you the same thing. Boost builds quicker because internal wastegates dont hold boost as well.

Ive never seen an external gate leak boost like an internal gate. All WGs need some sort of reference as to when they should open, internal or external. Most people buy a boost controller when they have an external gate anyway, why wouldnt you have one?

The answer as to why is because its much easier to setup a closed loop system that uses an external source of pressure to control the gate on an external and the fact that most high hp cars run T6 flanges so they dont have provisions for internal gates. External gates are overcome by backpressure all the time (especially in heads up racing where the turbo is the limiting factor). Thats why they often use external sources of pressure like compressed CO2 to hold it shut. I dont need to search any forums. You just need to post the proof. So far you havent proved $hit. My internal gate hold just fine to 650hp. Above that it needs more spring pressure to prevent it from unseating at high rpm. It doesnt leak at all on spoolup. The actuator arm doesnt even move a kunt hair at 25psi on the t-brake

 

[ScorpionT]

The answer as to why is because its much easier to setup a closed loop system that uses an external source of pressure to control the gate on an external and the fact that most high hp cars run T6 flanges so they dont have provisions for internal gates. External gates are overcome by backpressure all the time (especially in heads up racing where the turbo is the limiting factor). Thats why they often use external sources of pressure like compressed CO2 to hold it shut. I dont need to search any forums. You just need to post the proof. So far you havent proved $hit. My internal gate hold just fine to 650hp. Above that it needs more spring pressure to prevent it from unseating at high rpm. It doesnt leak at all on spoolup. The actuator arm doesnt even move a kunt hair at 25psi on the t-brake

T6 turbos dont have internal gates because they arent as good at controlling boost. Everybody with real experience knows that internal gates are notorious for leaking boost. You just need more knowledge outside the Buick area.

Ive never had a problem with external gates leaking, not even with 1000+whp cars. I also know the owners of Boost Logic and Titan Motorsports, on their 1500+whp drag cars they dont have boost leak problems.



Internal or External Wastegate? [Archive] - NASIOC

Running off external wastegate spring. - DSM Forums

https://www.iagperformance.com/shopping_cart/proddetail.php?prod=IAG-PER-1001

GrimmSpeed

Exhaust Systems

These guys all have experience that shows the internal gates arent as good as external.

 

[bison]

T6 turbos dont have internal gates because they arent as good at controlling boost. Everybody with real experience knows that internal gates are notorious for leaking boost. You just need more knowledge outside the Buick area.

Ive never had a problem with external gates leaking, not even with 1000+whp cars. I also know the owners of Boost Logic and Titan Motorsports, on their 1500+whp drag cars they dont have boost leak problems.



Internal or External Wastegate? [Archive] - NASIOC

Running off external wastegate spring. - DSM Forums

https://www.iagperformance.com/shopping_cart/proddetail.php?prod=IAG-PER-1001

GrimmSpeed

Exhaust Systems

These guys all have experience that shows the internal gates arent as good as external.

Your shot bud. T6's dont have internal gates because they were never designed to be used in compact mass produced applications. How the hell do you know what i have experience with? Ive proba bly forgot more than you will ever know. You still havent proved that the internals are leakers. All the high hp applications you mentioned all use externals with expensive electronic controllers like AMS 1000's or equivalent. Most have an external source of pressure to hold the gates shut. Whp doesnt mean d ick in the real world anyway. If you are racing any heads up you have to conform to their sh itty rules. Try running an external on a 3 bolt turbo and not use an external source of pressure to hold it shut. Go try it. See how bad the gate leaks at high power/rpm. Im not talking 400hp either. Im talking 140mph and up.

 

[T-TYPE 86]

I'm no expert, but this is the recent difference I saw with the TE-44 this weekend.
Stock turbo best time
0 boost of the line
60ft- 2.12
1/4- 12.97
mph- 103

I put a walbro, hot wire and TE-44
0 boost off the line
60ft- 2.07
1/4- 12.54
mph- 110.12

Dont look at the E.T. I was running some really old 255-50/16 bfg drag radials.
Hope this helps a little:wink:

 

[sugarandopium]

I'm no expert, but this is the recent difference I saw with the TE-44 this weekend.
Stock turbo best time
0 boost of the line
60ft- 2.12
1/4- 12.97
mph- 103

I put a walbro, hot wire and TE-44
0 boost off the line
60ft- 2.07
1/4- 12.54
mph- 110.12

Dont look at the E.T. I was running some really old 255-50/16 bfg drag radials.
Hope this helps a little:wink:

What converter are you using?
Nice project BTW. Wish I had the space to get a 67 camaro.
Next house is going to have a ****ing garage!!!

 

[ScorpionT]

Your shot bud. T6's dont have internal gates because they were never designed to be used in compact mass produced applications. How the hell do you know what i have experience with? Ive proba bly forgot more than you will ever know. You still havent proved that the internals are leakers. All the high hp applications you mentioned all use externals with expensive electronic controllers like AMS 1000's or equivalent. Most have an external source of pressure to hold the gates shut. Whp doesnt mean d ick in the real world anyway. If you are racing any heads up you have to conform to their sh itty rules. Try running an external on a 3 bolt turbo and not use an external source of pressure to hold it shut. Go try it. See how bad the gate leaks at high power/rpm. Im not talking 400hp either. Im talking 140mph and up.

If internal gates were superior, the large frame turbos would be designed with them. If you read the links, many people(including tuners) consistently say switching to an external helps with spool. If I wanted to waste other peoples time, I would talk to the engineer I know for BW turbo and one at Tial and ask them for an explanation on why IWGs are not as capable.

Internal and external wastegates both work the same. You can use a boost controller for either one, but you can also run both without one. Doesnt matter which one you have, if you are building a serious street or track car (high HP application) why wouldnt you have a quality boost controller? Its stupid not to have one. Im not going to spend $20k for performance work and run a cheap $100 MBC, then constantly being at risk for boost creep or spike. I like to protect my investment.

I dont see a point in arguing with you anymore, Ive seen your posts and it seems you always need to be right(even when you arent). Doesnt matter how plain as day something is, when you are proven wrong you wont admit it.

 

[bison]

If internal gates were superior, the large frame turbos would be designed with them. If you read the links, many people(including tuners) consistently say switching to an external helps with spool. If I wanted to waste other peoples time, I would talk to the engineer I know for BW turbo and one at Tial and ask them for an explanation on why IWGs are not as capable.

Internal and external wastegates both work the same. You can use a boost controller for either one, but you can also run both without one. Doesnt matter which one you have, if you are building a serious street or track car (high HP application) why wouldnt you have a quality boost controller? Its stupid not to have one. Im not going to spend $20k for performance work and run a cheap $100 MBC, then constantly being at risk for boost creep or spike. I like to protect my investment.

I dont see a point in arguing with you anymore, Ive seen your posts and it seems you always need to be right(even when you arent). Doesnt matter how plain as day something is, when you are proven wrong you wont admit it.

Your an a$$. You havent proven anything. The posts i make are usually backed by known data or what has actually happened. Maybe ill have to post a video for you to see. Ill put the engine at 25psi on the t-brake and you wont see the actuator move at all. Not even a little. No leaking there. You havent backed up your posts at all. You posted link backs from boards of guys commenting with little to no useful data. For any Buick running a 3 bolt its not typical to see any advantage with an external unless the car is really quick and using an electronic externally pressureized system to stage the boost throughout the pass. They are not used to increase spoolup in those applications. Oh and btw you arent building much with $20k.

 

[T-TYPE 86]

What converter are you using?
Nice project BTW. Wish I had the space to get a 67 camaro.
Next house is going to have a ****ing garage!!!

I'm using the stock converter.Beside the stuff in my sig everything is stock I've never even taken off the valve covers

 

[turbobitt]

I never said it would be quicker than stock, I said the 6262 gives a quick spool. Yes, external WG does help spool, its been proven countless times. They build and hold boost much more consistently. If you want to debate it, call any big tuner and you will hear the same thing. An external is designed for better boost control up top, but the second benefit is quicker spool.

I know Bison very well and see his cars run. I can think of some big tuners that should be calling him for advice, thats for sure. Since Bison and I often trade data, it would seem that he has more control with his stock style gate than I have with my external on my T6 turbo. Makes me jelous...

 

[ScorpionT]

Your an a$$. You havent proven anything. The posts i make are usually backed by known data or what has actually happened. Maybe ill have to post a video for you to see. Ill put the engine at 25psi on the t-brake and you wont see the actuator move at all. Not even a little. No leaking there. You havent backed up your posts at all. You posted link backs from boards of guys commenting with little to no useful data. For any Buick running a 3 bolt its not typical to see any advantage with an external unless the car is really quick and using an electronic externally pressureized system to stage the boost throughout the pass. They are not used to increase spoolup in those applications. Oh and btw you arent building much with $20k.

What exactly would you like as proof? I dont keep datalogs of everything I run on a dyno, no point. Like I said, many big name tuners will give you the same information I have. Turbo engineers will also confirm it.

It sounds like you have been pretty luck with an internal wastegate, and nothing more. Ive owned and built many cars and have never had an internal wastegate, stock or upgraded, be able to control boost as well as an external. Sure, you may have had some luck during high boost, but what if you buy a boost controller and want to run lower boost levels? A tiny internal wastegate doesnt have the ability to allow a high mass of air to bypass the turbine housing, so what can you do? Yes, an external wastegate is used in this situation! If you run a large enough turbo, you may even need two(was necessary on a Supra I built with a GT4788).

It could also be possible that for some reason the IWGs on Buick housings dont have problems with bleeding boost, and it may not be luck. Maybe its a complete anomaly in relation to other turbo housings. If it is, that still means you are correct when it comes to 3 bolt housings(and I would be wrong), but clearly dont have enough experience with other turbocharged applications to be able to dispute things I know as fact.

When it comes to boost controllers, almost every boost controller uses a reference line from the intake piping(sometimes turbo compressor housing) and not an electronically pressurized system. It simply operates off pressure generated by the turbocharger, controlled with a pressure sensor and solenoid, you need no external pressure source. But you knew all of this right? Yep, Im sure you did. Maybe you can school me on electro-hydraulically controlled sequential transmissions also.

When it comes to building much with $20k, it doesnt take a whole lot to make a 4 cylinder Evo hold 800whp. Its especially helpful when you dont pay retail price for anything, and when you can do almost all the work yourself. When it comes to the Supras, I put more than twice that amount into each I had.

 

[bison]

What exactly would you like as proof? I dont keep datalogs of everything I run on a dyno, no point. Like I said, many big name tuners will give you the same information I have. Turbo engineers will also confirm it.

It sounds like you have been pretty luck with an internal wastegate, and nothing more. Ive owned and built many cars and have never had an internal wastegate, stock or upgraded, be able to control boost as well as an external. Sure, you may have had some luck during high boost, but what if you buy a boost controller and want to run lower boost levels? A tiny internal wastegate doesnt have the ability to allow a high mass of air to bypass the turbine housing, so what can you do? Yes, an external wastegate is used in this situation! If you run a large enough turbo, you may even need two(was necessary on a Supra I built with a GT4788).

It could also be possible that for some reason the IWGs on Buick housings dont have problems with bleeding boost, and it may not be luck. Maybe its a complete anomaly in relation to other turbo housings. If it is, that still means you are correct when it comes to 3 bolt housings(and I would be wrong), but clearly dont have enough experience with other turbocharged applications to be able to dispute things I know as fact.

When it comes to boost controllers, almost every boost controller uses a reference line from the intake piping(sometimes turbo compressor housing) and not an electronically pressurized system. It simply operates off pressure generated by the turbocharger, controlled with a pressure sensor and solenoid, you need no external pressure source. But you knew all of this right? Yep, Im sure you did. Maybe you can school me on electro-hydraulically controlled sequential transmissions also.

When it comes to building much with $20k, it doesnt take a whole lot to make a 4 cylinder Evo hold 800whp. Its especially helpful when you dont pay retail price for anything, and when you can do almost all the work yourself. When it comes to the Supras, I put more than twice that amount into each I had.

All the info i gave was in relation to what would benefit the original posters concerns. Not about internal housings on different application. Maybe some of them are big time leakers. Maybe the actuators arent the correct ones for the range of boost run. The stock ones surely wont be able to do the job. Ive used internal and external (different brands, installed in different locations, different regulators, bleeders, anything you could imagine). For under 600hp i have seen absolutely zero benefit to an external on a Buick unless you want to be able to be able to easily stage the boost with an electronic controller. The heavy spring actuators are fine to 600hp with a GTQ exhaust in a 3 bolt. No leakage or boost loss at high rpm. Your example of how a wastegate works is missing an important element of operation. Were not talking dyno queens here. Mostly street cars and heads up racers which have a lot of backpressure. The missing element is the exhaust pressure which will overcome the manifold and spring pressure in the wastegates internal or external if the turbo hot side is run to the edge. If your able to control the gate without the external pressure and not have boost drop off in high gear then you arent working the turbo very hard. Out of all the heads up racers ive seen over the years i have never seen a bunch of guys like the ones that run TSO and TSM Buicks. Tiny, Tiny turbos (and crappy 25 year old tech stock blocks in TSM) and heavy cars and they still keep going faster and faster. Exhaust pressure in TSM has been datalogged in the high 70's at around 30psi manifold pressure. Do you think you would be able to control that without external pressure? Not likely and you would lose boost quickly as rpm went up regardless of the gate type. When you are running a 150ci engine on a dyno with a T6 you dont even come close to the conditions heads up racers have to face running a POS 3 bolt housing over 1000hp. Another thing to mention is that when you build an engine that can use the airflow potential of a 4788 you dont plan on running low boost/rpm. Big rpm and 50psi boost to even get in the meat of the efficiency island on a small cube application like that. Otherwise just pick a smaller turbo to get the job done.