H&R Bar
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Bump for a good question!
I think it would be just like adjusting it for the first time, the only difference is that you or someone of your weight would have to be in the drivers seat.
Shorten the drivers side link as much as possible, snug the jam nuts up against it. Now you can adjust the passenger side, find the spot where the center link will "freewheel". Mark on the threads where the center link stops freewheeling (On each end) and put the link back inbetween the 2 marks and tighten the 2 jam nuts.
Now go back and do the same to the drivers side.
With no one in the car the bar will be neutral, with someone in the drivers seat the bar should be biased.
Shorten the drivers side link as much as possible, snug the jam nuts up against it. Now you can adjust the passenger side, find the spot where the center link will "freewheel". Mark on the threads where the center link stops freewheeling (On each end) and put the link back inbetween the 2 marks and tighten the 2 jam nuts.
Now go back and do the same to the drivers side.
With no one in the car the bar will be neutral, with someone in the drivers seat the bar should be biased.
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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- Jul 19, 2001
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Installing mine this weekend and been revieweing the install. FWIW the instructions state that unless the car is in the 9's or better preload has not helped .
HRpartsNstuff
Member
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Basically getting some good advice here.
You (and anyone with our parts) are more than welcome to email me directly for advice/tuning/setup/etc of our parts. Sometimes I can respond right away, sometimes it takes a day or 2. I rarely have time to visit the boards much these days, so today is your lucky day!
This part you can do on the rack or ramps or whatever, doesn't matter. Do the install per assembly guide provided. Then shorten the driver side link all the way or real close to it, lock it down. Put the pass link close to same length to start out, and leave nuts loose & a few turns away from hex links. Then.....
Getting it onto dead level ground is VERY important. Next most important is even pressures in the rear tires. Fronts should be same also (side to side) but don't have to be same as rears. If still running airbags for further tuning ability, set them equally and as low as possible for your necessary ground clearance etc. You should be able to reach around the tire to get the feel of the pass link for neutral. You will feel it push the rod ends apart going one way, and pulling them together the other way (about a 2 turn area). Put it in the middle of that "neutral" area to start out & snug a nut or 2 by hand.
Then you can put it back on ramps or lift or even jack up on the bar to get more clearance to tighten up with wrenches. Be safe & use jack stands of course. The bar works fine to jack it up by, just protect that beautiful black powdercoat
As for preload, for MOST people neutral works just fine IF SET RIGHT. If in doubt how level the ground was etc, go by how the car "pushes" off the line or any change in tracking down the highway. You can adjust it a turn either way without getting into too much trouble, just mark it so you know where you started from, and always adj the pass side.
On faster cars, and more of the race-only guys, you can add preload for more violent launches. This is somewhat modifying our instructions, but even in the 10's, a little preload might help. If you are going straight & it drives straight, leave it as close to neutral as possible. If it still leans a little off the line & you have to drive it a little, then trying some preload might help. Basically, a mid 10 car could benefit from 1 turn, a mid 9 more like 2 turns, and mid 8's to mid 7's get 2-1/2 to 3 at most. A little goes a long way, it's VERY strong and tight. If you street drive it a lot, stay on the conservative side close to neutral.
As for driver in the car or not, seems to be not more than a half turn or so different for most. If it's convenient & you race it often, go for it. If you daily drive it a lot & not convenient, don't worry about it. Kinda splitting hairs there. Don't have to think "Oh no, what if a pass rides with me, do I need to reset it?", it's not that big of a deal.
Just remember, if ANYTHING CHANGES, always adj the bar LAST. Some people have added air to pass airbag with our bar, trying to improve things or maybe trying to correct an incorrect initial setting on the bar. If you don't reset the bar last, the bag is lifting the car & the bar is pulling it down, fighting against each other. When that happens, it will never work right or the same twice. I would say 98% set it as they should & it's perfect & doesn't need messed with again. The harder you launch or the less level your work area is, the more you might have to tweak it to get that sweet spot.
Shock settings & frame flex & bushing/control arm flex/etc/etc play into it all at faster levels. One 9 sec cars setting isn't perfect for another 9 sec car. If you got it set right, it should drive where you aim it, come out straight & hard, and corner like mad.
You (and anyone with our parts) are more than welcome to email me directly for advice/tuning/setup/etc of our parts. Sometimes I can respond right away, sometimes it takes a day or 2. I rarely have time to visit the boards much these days, so today is your lucky day!
This part you can do on the rack or ramps or whatever, doesn't matter. Do the install per assembly guide provided. Then shorten the driver side link all the way or real close to it, lock it down. Put the pass link close to same length to start out, and leave nuts loose & a few turns away from hex links. Then.....
Getting it onto dead level ground is VERY important. Next most important is even pressures in the rear tires. Fronts should be same also (side to side) but don't have to be same as rears. If still running airbags for further tuning ability, set them equally and as low as possible for your necessary ground clearance etc. You should be able to reach around the tire to get the feel of the pass link for neutral. You will feel it push the rod ends apart going one way, and pulling them together the other way (about a 2 turn area). Put it in the middle of that "neutral" area to start out & snug a nut or 2 by hand.
Then you can put it back on ramps or lift or even jack up on the bar to get more clearance to tighten up with wrenches. Be safe & use jack stands of course. The bar works fine to jack it up by, just protect that beautiful black powdercoat
As for preload, for MOST people neutral works just fine IF SET RIGHT. If in doubt how level the ground was etc, go by how the car "pushes" off the line or any change in tracking down the highway. You can adjust it a turn either way without getting into too much trouble, just mark it so you know where you started from, and always adj the pass side.
On faster cars, and more of the race-only guys, you can add preload for more violent launches. This is somewhat modifying our instructions, but even in the 10's, a little preload might help. If you are going straight & it drives straight, leave it as close to neutral as possible. If it still leans a little off the line & you have to drive it a little, then trying some preload might help. Basically, a mid 10 car could benefit from 1 turn, a mid 9 more like 2 turns, and mid 8's to mid 7's get 2-1/2 to 3 at most. A little goes a long way, it's VERY strong and tight. If you street drive it a lot, stay on the conservative side close to neutral.
As for driver in the car or not, seems to be not more than a half turn or so different for most. If it's convenient & you race it often, go for it. If you daily drive it a lot & not convenient, don't worry about it. Kinda splitting hairs there. Don't have to think "Oh no, what if a pass rides with me, do I need to reset it?", it's not that big of a deal.
Just remember, if ANYTHING CHANGES, always adj the bar LAST. Some people have added air to pass airbag with our bar, trying to improve things or maybe trying to correct an incorrect initial setting on the bar. If you don't reset the bar last, the bag is lifting the car & the bar is pulling it down, fighting against each other. When that happens, it will never work right or the same twice. I would say 98% set it as they should & it's perfect & doesn't need messed with again. The harder you launch or the less level your work area is, the more you might have to tweak it to get that sweet spot.
Shock settings & frame flex & bushing/control arm flex/etc/etc play into it all at faster levels. One 9 sec cars setting isn't perfect for another 9 sec car. If you got it set right, it should drive where you aim it, come out straight & hard, and corner like mad.
Paul,
I have been following the threads on your bar and reading your website but since I caught you on here, could you tell me if your bar will solve my problem.
I have what should be a high 10 sec track car but it is really only street driven with about 20 lbs boost on alky (problem below keeps me from anything more radical).
I have 275 60 Nitto DR's, air bags, all new body and suspension bushings (including the GNX body bushings over the rear end), boxed stock uppers, stock roll bar and NOT Southside but similar looking lower arms (maker unknown, about 8 years old, square shaped not round with grease fittings at each end). See signature for other items.
Problem is if you punch it in first gear from 10-20 mph, it immediately wants to swing the rear end clockwise a LOT - so bad you HAVE to get out of it. We found with air bag pressure set to 19 drivers side and 31 passenger side, it still cannot be launched but at least from a 20 mph roll, it almost goes straight. Many of todays faster street vehicles have great traction (AWD or huge tires) and although I have the track power to beat most of them, on the street, lack of not being able to go straight or being able to launch is putting me "seriously at risk".
Any opinions are more than welcomed.
Thanks - Terry
I have been following the threads on your bar and reading your website but since I caught you on here, could you tell me if your bar will solve my problem.
I have what should be a high 10 sec track car but it is really only street driven with about 20 lbs boost on alky (problem below keeps me from anything more radical).
I have 275 60 Nitto DR's, air bags, all new body and suspension bushings (including the GNX body bushings over the rear end), boxed stock uppers, stock roll bar and NOT Southside but similar looking lower arms (maker unknown, about 8 years old, square shaped not round with grease fittings at each end). See signature for other items.
Problem is if you punch it in first gear from 10-20 mph, it immediately wants to swing the rear end clockwise a LOT - so bad you HAVE to get out of it. We found with air bag pressure set to 19 drivers side and 31 passenger side, it still cannot be launched but at least from a 20 mph roll, it almost goes straight. Many of todays faster street vehicles have great traction (AWD or huge tires) and although I have the track power to beat most of them, on the street, lack of not being able to go straight or being able to launch is putting me "seriously at risk".
Any opinions are more than welcomed.
Thanks - Terry
Order one and don't look back..... easily one of the best upgrades i have ever done to the car. i used to run my airbags at 20psi pass and 7psi driver to get it to launch staright, anything else the car would kick out to the right. After the bar, no air in the bags, always straight regardless of road speed. No front swaybar and I can take offramps now without sliding off the leather onto the pavement...
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
Well, without seeing it in motion and knowing exactly what parts you have on the rearend, here's my best guess. I would have to say you have a couple things going on there, maybe more.
1) If your lower bars are like the old ssm style with a thin wall nylon or delrin material in there (not big poly bushings), then it is binding up on you for sure. When that happens, it will not let the rear suspension work like it should, and no (or very little) weight will transfer. Our lowers or at least our bushings in a boxed stock arm would be better than what you have there.
2) Our swaybar would definitely help & free up the suspension even more, but will not overcome issue #1. If the lowers are still binding, the new sway may get enough traction & weight transfer to work, or it could do the same thing if bound up too much. Either way, street handling would be WAY better.
3) At your performance level, I would NOT recommend the drop down brackets. You could have something installed WAY off & never know it without getting it on a rack & measuring it all out. Many people in old days put these on, and where they were sitting at the time is where they got bolted/welded on. It's not easy, but when installing those drop down brackets, you can twist the rearend around quite a bit. One side could be 1/2" forward compared to the other. There was nothing to help you line it all back up. The factory rear had it's brackets welded on in a fixture or something to locate them properly. Plus, if the arms are designed & working right, lowering that point doesn't have that much advantage. A new rear housing with raised upper mounting points is by far the best way to go, but BIG bucks to do that swap. Not so bad when selling a good 8.5 setup to offset costs though.
4) With the more solid type bushings, you could have broken the welds on the brackets where the forward end of the lowers tie into the frame. Once they come loose, the car goes all over the place. This is VERY common with the ssm style bars, even on daily drivers. We made up a brace kit # 0251 to fix that issue.
5) The bushings in your boxed uppers could be too soft or binding up as well. If too hard & binding up, you got same issues as above. If too soft, then the rear moves around too much & pinion angle changes & alignment changes. I know it kinda sounds biased, but if they are not our design, there is a VERY good chance what you have is adding to the cause one way or another. If too soft, they could have pushed thru & be metal to metal & make the car go all over too.
Hate to say it, but you may need new lowers and a bar to see a good improvement, and maybe even the uppers too. Could have bad pinion angle setting compounding the issue. Also, the higher pressures in the bags may be covering up the binding issue a little & may seem to help, but too stiff back there & you won't get any weight to transfer.
Email me any pictures or video you have of the rear suspension parts & could be 100% sure, but seems pretty close right now. We see quite a bit of this out there, even more with the Malibu & other non-buick guys that have been around longer. Wasn't a whole lot to choose from years ago, and stock stuff sure didn't work with the higher HP levels
YouLikeThat
Member
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- Aug 24, 2004
- Messages
- 1,076
Paul,
Just got done installing your bar. What are your thoughts on pinion snubbers with your bar.
Thanks
Scott
Just got done installing your bar. What are your thoughts on pinion snubbers with your bar.
Thanks
Scott
HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
I'm sure there will be someone out there to say they like them, but everyone we have seen doesn't like them & never gets them to work. That is with or without our bar, doesn't matter. I have personally seen several cars pick up 2-3 tenths by removing them!
What happens is as soon as you launch, the TR's natural suspension geometry (unfortunately) makes the rearend squat. Even though that may look like you are getting traction, it's actually the rearend coming up into the car & losing traction. This is fixed best with the aftermarket rearend housings with the upper mounting points (ears) raised slightly. This is also why just having a slight bit of air (like 3-5psi) in the bags with a stk rearend housing seems to help out for most.
When the car squats, the pinion snubber hits, and unloads the chassis, losing some or most of the traction you have. Lot's of cars that spin right off the line or hook for a split second & spin & then hook again could have this as the reason why. I really doubt if you will see 5% of the guys running good & consistent in 10's & faster using them. Some have them in but probably never hit them because of their setup.
Wouldn't recommend on any car unless it's a 13 sec ride you plan to stuff 3 big guys in the back seat with a trunk full of junk & go cruzin
scojack_2001
Livin' Like A Refugee
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 1,392
Im pretty sure Im gonna pick up one these bars. Ive heard nothing but good things about it. I was wondering what the best rear suspension setup would be, as I want everything to work together. I only have cargo coilsprings and KYBs in the rear. Ive cut between 1.58 and 1.65 60' times on a 28" MT ET Drag. Thats with the stock, unboxed control arms and a stock swaybar.
I was wondering if I need adjustable uppers or anything like that to help the lauch? I am planning on airbags, but only to soften the ride a little. I'd like to go with a nice LCA and maybe adjustable uppers. I drive this car alot on the street, and I just put a 36mm swaybar in the front.
I just wanted some feedback as to the best course of action for a street/strip car. That and when I hit it on the street tires, it does goes in the other lane...
I was wondering if I need adjustable uppers or anything like that to help the lauch? I am planning on airbags, but only to soften the ride a little. I'd like to go with a nice LCA and maybe adjustable uppers. I drive this car alot on the street, and I just put a 36mm swaybar in the front.
I just wanted some feedback as to the best course of action for a street/strip car. That and when I hit it on the street tires, it does goes in the other lane...
YouLikeThat
Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2004
- Messages
- 1,076
I'm sure there will be someone out there to say they like them, but everyone we have seen doesn't like them & never gets them to work. That is with or without our bar, doesn't matter. I have personally seen several cars pick up 2-3 tenths by removing them!
What happens is as soon as you launch, the TR's natural suspension geometry (unfortunately) makes the rearend squat. Even though that may look like you are getting traction, it's actually the rearend coming up into the car & losing traction. This is fixed best with the aftermarket rearend housings with the upper mounting points (ears) raised slightly. This is also why just having a slight bit of air (like 3-5psi) in the bags with a stk rearend housing seems to help out for most.
When the car squats, the pinion snubber hits, and unloads the chassis, losing some or most of the traction you have. Lot's of cars that spin right off the line or hook for a split second & spin & then hook again could have this as the reason why. I really doubt if you will see 5% of the guys running good & consistent in 10's & faster using them. Some have them in but probably never hit them because of their setup.
Wouldn't recommend on any car unless it's a 13 sec ride you plan to stuff 3 big guys in the back seat with a trunk full of junk & go cruzin
Thank you, that's good info. I'm trying to beat my 1.50 60's. I have a pinion snubber on now but will remove along with the front sway bar so I'll see if that works in a few weeks,
Scott
Making Boost
QIKAZEL
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2006
- Messages
- 156
I will recommend this bar to anyone who will listen. I went from high 1.6's on slicks to 1.47-1.51 60fts consistantly with this bar on drag radials. . Its an awesome product. It also completely made the car drivable w/o the front swaybar on it.
. Its an awesome product. It also completely made the car drivable w/o the front swaybar on it.HRpartsNstuff
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
- Messages
- 844
Im pretty sure Im gonna pick up one these bars. Ive heard nothing but good things about it. I was wondering what the best rear suspension setup would be, as I want everything to work together. I only have cargo coilsprings and KYBs in the rear. Ive cut between 1.58 and 1.65 60' times on a 28" MT ET Drag. Thats with the stock, unboxed control arms and a stock swaybar.
I was wondering if I need adjustable uppers or anything like that to help the lauch? I am planning on airbags, but only to soften the ride a little. I'd like to go with a nice LCA and maybe adjustable uppers. I drive this car alot on the street, and I just put a 36mm swaybar in the front.
I just wanted some feedback as to the best course of action for a street/strip car. That and when I hit it on the street tires, it does goes in the other lane...
Well, got a couple things going on there that need addressed. I will guess you are running somewhere in the 11's & as all of us do (or did) want to eventually go a 10 or faster. With that said, our # 0907 package is fine for daily driving & will take the abuse of 9 sec runs all day long. That gets you the swaybar, adj uppers, and lowers, with hardware etc.
If you are thinking mid 11's will be your max level, you could go with our # 0905 pkg with solid uppers & save a little. Either kit will greatly improve handling, traction, and overall performance street & strip.
One thing I would suggest would be different springs for sure. I haven't seen 1 car or heard 1 person say they like the cargo springs or can get them to work good. A good set of stockers is best for any car even into the low 8's! Our suspension parts will definitely help out, but may need to look at different springs to get the full potential of your ride.
The shocks may be a great choice for the street, but might be leaving a little on the strip. Might need to try out & see if you can get it to work in both areas. A good adj front shock could help at the strip & go back to street setting when done racing.
Also, the airbags will STIFFEN the ride, not soften it up. I would say the cargo springs are giving you a rougher ride than anything. Most like a good (or even well worn out) stock spring with airbags @ min pressures for best performance street & strip.
scojack_2001
Livin' Like A Refugee
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
- Messages
- 1,392
Thanks for your reply. My car will never see a cage, so take that for what its worth. Im sure someday I'll want to go faster, as does everyone at some point. I got a deal on the shocks and springs, so I cant complain. Before I did the rear springs and shocks, I could push the bumper down onto the stops. I just want my car to be a solid street/strip car that car run within its capabilities. I'll probably just do a decent set of uppers and lowers with you bar and call it done. If I give up a little performance for a nicer ride, I can live with that. But who know what I'll do. But I do know your bar will probably be a part of it.
breiter
Coolboost
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Messages
- 457
HR parts - quality stuff
I installed the 0907 kit and love it. Great product that looks good and performs even better. I'm planning for some high 10 runs this season and I needed the suspension to get me there. Car drives great on the street and perfectly straight down the track. Good info Paul. I see some tuning tricks that I was not aware of and will use if needed.
I installed the 0907 kit and love it. Great product that looks good and performs even better. I'm planning for some high 10 runs this season and I needed the suspension to get me there. Car drives great on the street and perfectly straight down the track. Good info Paul. I see some tuning tricks that I was not aware of and will use if needed.
