Help me decide...

[coach]

Hey Guys,
I was contacted by a member who has a complete NA Stage2 On Center engine for sale. Motor is assembled. All BMS parts. Block, crank, Stg2 heads,4bbl intake, rods, front cover, oil pan, T&D roller rockers, pistons and pushrods, and dry sump system. I want to drop it in my GN, but hearing nightmares about assy brackets not working and the price of headers and other parts. Lets say the price is very well within my budget. How much more am I in for, for headers, balancer to work with cam sensor, pistons for turbo app, camshaft and lifters, and to mod the 4bbl for injectors? I am running a street car, but this is way cheaper then a 109 stroker engine, but needs more to finish. Help me...should I or shouldnt I?

:biggrin:

 

[pdzz]

Coach, what are your ET goals??? If it's a NA motor, probably to much compression. I've been piecing together an on-center for 2 years. Getting close though. Stock engines are off-center, so an on-center will have to have some work done for the accesory bracket to work. I've heard of guys milling the front cover .120. If you want to run low nine's and feel good about it, stage is the way to go!! Good luck!! Phil.

 

[antiquettype]

My Opinion

Just my opinion based on my own experience. I think buying a N/A motor you are getting a block and crankshaft, with a maybe on the crankshaft depending on what company finished it back in the day. The turbo motors now are so different than what was put in those motors that very little is usable. Do I think you should do it, oh yeah. The money spending will have just begun although.

 

[278cikiller]

Stage II

Any stage II motor get out your wallet and keep it open,because the money flys out real fast.

 

[Mac in SD]

headers, 1000-2000
balancer to work with cam sensor, 350
pistons for turbo app, 600 new plus rings
camshaft and lifters, 800 new
mod the 4bbl for injectors, 500 or so, plus a hemco plenum and adapter

you'll need a flexplate, too (JW around $200, I think.)

S2 heads are GREAT, but you'll also need to modify or remove the heater box for them to fit in the car.

 

[Red C5]

I'm not sure but unless you're sure that you're going to save quite a bit, I would take the more proven and easier route. Then again seeing all the cool things you've made, this could be another Coach's Custom.

 

[coach]

I'm not sure but unless you're sure that you're going to save quite a bit, I would take the more proven and easier route. Then again seeing all the cool things you've made, this could be another Coach's Custom.

That is the tough part. I am not afraid of fabrication to any degree. I do not want to hack-up my 22k mile GN. If I had a plain jane T-type, I would do whatever was needed. I am thinking that I will stay with the plan of a 109 stroker, but this deal was very very tempting. If it was off center, I would have grabbed it by now.

Thanks for the replies.
:biggrin:

 

[antiquettype]

off-center

I think the on center is the least of the concerns with that motor. I think it is the best trait overall, actually. They fit in the car the same, the only fab work I can think of is the front cover modification and the crossover pipe for the headers, and both are minor. People have not touched on this, but the dry sump pumps don't work well in our cars, you would have to change the front cover to a stock style and use a duttweiller style pump system. I would also plan on using production style heads for almost all applications as they are more efficient, and you will have wayyy more fun with them.
If you wanted a relatively low output stage 2 car which is really cool I think, you would probably spend $20,000 to get it there and do it right. If you were trying to build a max effort stage 2 car you could top $50,000 pretty fast. I know there is a lot of different ways to look at things, but having some experience this is how I see it.

 

[Red C5]

That is the tough part. I am not afraid of fabrication to any degree. I do not want to hack-up my 22k mile GN. If I had a plain jane T-type, I would do whatever was needed. I am thinking that I will stay with the plan of a 109 stroker, but this deal was very very tempting. If it was off center, I would have grabbed it by now.

Thanks for the replies.
:biggrin:

I didn't realize this if for your 22k mile GN, would def go the 109 stroker route.

 

[Squid4life]

If the deal is good enough, I say go for it. Use what you can (basically the shortblock):

Block
crank
rods

Sell or trade what you are not going to use towards the stuff you can use. A lot of guys out there will buy the heads, rockers, dry sump stuff, front cover, etc, etc, etc. This would give you some $ towards the rest. If you were going 109 stroker, you would probably already be getting crank, rods, pistons, heads, roller cam setup, flexplate, good balancer, etc so that is no "loss" or waste". You would also more than likely be going with a girdle or at least billet caps. No need to with a stage block. Machine a front cover so a dutt/DLS style oil pump will work, use stock or good 109 aftermaret headers. The intake would be the biggest difference and cost probably. You would need to get an oncenter champion instead of running the modified edelbrock, which would only be used with the S2 heads anyhow.

Basically you would be building a bad ass shortblock, and adding the good stuff you probably would have done anyhow with the 109 stroker. Now, you would just have a stronger bottom end that should last a lot longer getting beat on.

Just an idea, but of course I may be biased since I am trying to collect parts for a S2 build as well.

 

[coach]

I am building a fixture right now to modify the stock front covers to fit the on center engines so I can run accessories. I am going to do one for Squid and then I will be able to cut for anyone who needs it. I need to learn what else needs modded and I will fixture it. Then the next guy who needs it done wont be stuck.

:biggrin:

 

[Squid4life]

As far as I remember, that is all you need to do to the front cover, just mill it ~.120 to mesh the cam sensor up. The Dutt/DLS style external oil pump should not need modded to fit on there, you just need to add the “sump” and line for the pickup, and a return, which usually goes to the fuel pump block off plate on the drivers side. Anyone else disagree? Am I missing anything to be able to make an oncenter "mostly stock" when using stock config heads and an on center Champ style intake? Maybe a little tweaking of the front accessory mounts, probably along the same ~.120 measurement?

 

[odell4o8]

cover

all i did was shim the dist,gear .120 and shim the balancer .120 i didnt do anything to the front cover, the msd crank trigger wheel moved the crank pulley out by .500 i had to move bracket .500 from head, worked for me,
good luck oc,

 

[Squid4life]

all i did was shim the dist,gear .120 and shim the balancer .120 i didnt do anything to the front cover, the msd crank trigger wheel moved the crank pulley out by .500 i had to move bracket .500 from head, worked for me,
good luck oc,

Thanks a ton for posting that! What if running a stock cam sensor? Can it be shimmed? How exactly did you shim the balancer? You mean a shim behind the pulley, in between it and the balancer hub itself? Feel free to draw a picture in crayons to help me understand. :biggrin:

 

[coach]

all i did was shim the dist,gear .120 and shim the balancer .120 i didnt do anything to the front cover, the msd crank trigger wheel moved the crank pulley out by .500 i had to move bracket .500 from head, worked for me,
good luck oc,

I am sure that modding the front cover is going to be a piece of cake. I want a cam sensor , not dist or trigger. I just want to be able to put all the factory assy back on. Tensioner, A/C, alt, and have it line up with the crank pulley. I will run the TA heads and On center Champion full race intake. Keep the education coming. I was reading in a GM performance catalog I Googled, and it even said the front cover needs moved to work.

http://www.s-series.org/htm/tech/GMPerfParts/149-152.pdf

:biggrin:

 

[Robert Wilson]

I am sure that modding the front cover is going to be a piece of cake. I want a cam sensor , not dist or trigger. I just want to be able to put all the factory assy back on. Tensioner, A/C, alt, and have it line up with the crank pulley. I will run the TA heads and On center Champion full race intake. Keep the education coming. I was reading in a GM performance catalog I Googled, and it even said the front cover needs moved to work.

http://www.s-series.org/htm/tech/GMPerfParts/149-152.pdf

:biggrin:

I did same thing as Odell408. Spaced the balancer .120" and spaced cam sensor gear .120". I did not have to modify front cover or accessory bracket for everything to line up. There is one area on the front cover near the bottom left side that will need to be built up to seal oil properly to the front of the block.

 

[Squid4life]

What if running a stock cam sensor? Can it be shimmed? How exactly did you shim the balancer? You mean a shim behind the pulley, in between it and the balancer hub itself? Feel free to draw a picture in crayons to help me understand. :biggrin:

Robert, can you explain/show how you spaced them out .120?

 

[Mac in SD]

As far as I remember, that is all you need to do to the front cover, just mill it ~.120 to mesh the cam sensor up. The Dutt/DLS style external oil pump should not need modded to fit on there, you just need to add the “sump” and line for the pickup, and a return, which usually goes to the fuel pump block off plate on the drivers side. Anyone else disagree? Am I missing anything to be able to make an oncenter "mostly stock" when using stock config heads and an on center Champ style intake? Maybe a little tweaking of the front accessory mounts, probably along the same ~.120 measurement?

That's what I did. I figured if Buick Power Source thought that spacing the balancer and cam sensor was the way to go, they wouldn't have recomm'd milling the front cover.

You might have to grind the oil pump housing on one screw boss to clear the block...no big deal. Then mill your main accessory bracket .120 and it all lines up.

Your choice.

 

[Squid4life]

You are the man Mac! Much appreciated! I still need to come take a peek at your Bad A street car!

 

[odell4o8]

Thanks a ton for posting that! What if running a stock cam sensor? Can it be shimmed? How exactly did you shim the balancer? You mean a shim behind the pulley, in between it and the balancer hub itself? Feel free to draw a picture in crayons to help me understand. :biggrin:

squid, i made the shim, washer wit a slot filed for the key, shim was installed between the balancer and oil slinger,, one on end of cam was installed between the conc, and the drive gear for the cam sensor or distributor,
nothing new a lot of people has done this, some people has had cam sensor gear and cam gear wear because of spacing,
now my car dont get driven on the street just down to the park few times
when i pulled the distributor out i didnt see any wear on the gear,
good luck oc,