i have a basically stock 87 gn w/100k mi. that runs great.i do have 340 fuel pump,3" ss thdp,lt1 maf,translator +.im looking to run as quick as possible on pump gas,no alky injection.wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how i can do it preferably with a stock converter.i was going to have my heads ported soon but i dont really know where to go from there.should i get a knock,boost, and egt gauge or should i just get directscan w/a laptop? thanks for any suggestions
high 11's possible on pump gas ???
- Thread starter fugitive
- Start date
I haven't done it with a GN yet, but I will be shooting for 11s on straight pump gas also. The key will be good flow and low temps. Spinning the life out of the turbo will hurt you so flow will be everything to keep the boost required down. . It's definitely not the least expensive route, but I'm confident that it can be done.
This is part of the plan I will take and it should get me knocking on the door.
P&P heads with larger valves.
Ported Intake
Complete ATR exhaust
Built Trans(myself)
Maybe 2800 stall converter if necessary
50 lb+ injectors
Heads that flow 50-60 cfm more than stock will make a huge difference. Just changing the valvesprings brought my car to life. I can't imagine what good flowing heads will feel like.
This is part of the plan I will take and it should get me knocking on the door.
P&P heads with larger valves.
Ported Intake
Complete ATR exhaust
Built Trans(myself)
Maybe 2800 stall converter if necessary
50 lb+ injectors
Heads that flow 50-60 cfm more than stock will make a huge difference. Just changing the valvesprings brought my car to life. I can't imagine what good flowing heads will feel like.
badboy86gn2
"lord be with me"
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2001
ive done but not on pump gas though ive come close i ran a 12.2 on 17lbs butt i dont think its possible without the mods
Johnny
even at sea leval
good luck
Johnny
even at sea leval
good luck
JDSfastGN
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2001
Well to go 11s on pump gas only, means you have to port the heads basically. I have gone 11.92 at 113 and 11.93 at 113. to back it up on nitto drag radials and 17 psi and pump gas. I did have a little 110 in the tank with my 93 from running it a couple of nights before, but it was 16-17 psi and my street chip which i run every day with no knock. You'll need bigger injectors (50s are nice) at least a te44 (a little bigger will make it easier) ported heads, maybe a small cam, and a better flowing/cooling intercooler. A stock convertor may be able to work if you keep the turbo a 44/49. Good flowing heads is the key to making power on pump gas. It really would be easier and cheaper to just run alky injection and not bother with the heads cam etc... but when it does come to putting the car into race trim with high boost/timing that same set up should be a low 11 sec car imo.
JDSfastGN
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2001
Also definitly get a boost gauge as a first. Next, direct scan/laptop and get the car running in tip top shape with every mod you add. Later i would add the gauges as you don't want to drive around with a laptop all the time lol but you do want to know whats going on with the car.
thanks for the replys.my goal is high 11's or close to it as possible going the old school route.im a former 4th gen f-body guy so im not to up to date with the turbo scene.i always did heads,cam,gear,and headers.i will eventually buy an alky kit but i would like to go as fast as i can without it first and still be very streetable.i dont want to have to worry about keeping the alky kit full on the street.i would like to be able to go fast and never worry about filling any tanks or bottles up.so far from what you guys are saying i need :
1.gauges-boost,knock,direct scan
2.injectors,size??seems most people are going with the 50 lbs,is that right
3.heads ported
4.turbo-what size ???also what brand ?
5.converter-what size converter?? what brand is the best for the money.i also dont want to go to crazy on the converter,still would like to keep it streetable and not heat up the tranny too much with a crazy stall speed.
6.chip
7.upgrade the IC,what brand?i know front mount is probably the best but i dont want to cut anything up to make it fit so i would like to keep it in the stock location.
thanks
1.gauges-boost,knock,direct scan
2.injectors,size??seems most people are going with the 50 lbs,is that right
3.heads ported
4.turbo-what size ???also what brand ?
5.converter-what size converter?? what brand is the best for the money.i also dont want to go to crazy on the converter,still would like to keep it streetable and not heat up the tranny too much with a crazy stall speed.
6.chip
7.upgrade the IC,what brand?i know front mount is probably the best but i dont want to cut anything up to make it fit so i would like to keep it in the stock location.
thanks
da
I am sorry ! But to me this seems really STUPID !! Why would you even risk the motor to use pump gas to get into the 11's ?
Why would you spend all that money on other stuff and not get alky ?? Just buy the alky turn up the boost and go from there .I wouldnt even worry about all that other crap tell you get all you can out of your stock setup . Do a search on ED'S buick and you'll see what you can get with alky . It seems like people in the buick world , spend and waste alot of money on DUMB stuff . I see some sigs that I would be ashmed to put on here . Some people got 20k in a car and runs 12.90's . Dont be one of these guys .
Let me tell you what it will sound like when you try this .
KNOCK
KNOCK
WHOS THERE ?
HEAD GASKET
HEAD GASKET WHO
HEAD GASKET WHERE DO I GET ON FROM
just my 2 cents
I am sorry ! But to me this seems really STUPID !! Why would you even risk the motor to use pump gas to get into the 11's ?
Why would you spend all that money on other stuff and not get alky ?? Just buy the alky turn up the boost and go from there .I wouldnt even worry about all that other crap tell you get all you can out of your stock setup . Do a search on ED'S buick and you'll see what you can get with alky . It seems like people in the buick world , spend and waste alot of money on DUMB stuff . I see some sigs that I would be ashmed to put on here . Some people got 20k in a car and runs 12.90's . Dont be one of these guys .
Let me tell you what it will sound like when you try this .
KNOCK
KNOCK
WHOS THERE ?
HEAD GASKET
HEAD GASKET WHO
HEAD GASKET WHERE DO I GET ON FROM
just my 2 cents
It costs 2-3 bucks for a gallon of alcohol. You consume 6-8 ounces in a 12 second pass. Divide 128 ounces by 6-8= a lot of passes for a few bucks.
Ditto.. can it be done without heads and cam at 16-18 PSI in the heat... not a chance. Some will argue that they've done it.. in Florida.. No way.
Slow91Z and tsturbo, I almost spit up my coffee this morning reading this thread..
Ditto.. can it be done without heads and cam at 16-18 PSI in the heat... not a chance. Some will argue that they've done it.. in Florida.. No way.
Slow91Z and tsturbo, I almost spit up my coffee this morning reading this thread..
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
have to agree with tsturbo.
alky should be first if you dont plan on running race fuel.
it will cost you more for the first set of head gaskets than the kit
as far as running out and having to constantly fill the bottle , it was these myths that i heard over and over from people that didnt want to risk trying it for fear of running the bottle dry and not knowing it .
my tank holds one gallon ,1000 street miles , many WOT runs and test blasts and i just ran out my first gallon of alcohol which a refill is as close as your nearest home depot ,hardware store or paint supply .
with the new kit running out is not an issue ,it lets you know when its getting low (still has over 40 oz at that point) you only consume about 6 oz on a 1/4 mile run and none unless you get into the gas (above 4 lbs boost). so for daily driving its always there ready to take on any challengers
bang for buck alky has to be the best out there as it doesnt require special parts to make it fast , no fancy intercoolers , no big turbos , even with stock injectors , just get a good alky chip
if going fast is your goal and doing it on 93 will be your means be prepared for a lot of money invested in parts and time porting and get a few extra sets of head gaskets
alky should be first if you dont plan on running race fuel.
it will cost you more for the first set of head gaskets than the kit
as far as running out and having to constantly fill the bottle , it was these myths that i heard over and over from people that didnt want to risk trying it for fear of running the bottle dry and not knowing it .
my tank holds one gallon ,1000 street miles , many WOT runs and test blasts and i just ran out my first gallon of alcohol which a refill is as close as your nearest home depot ,hardware store or paint supply .
with the new kit running out is not an issue ,it lets you know when its getting low (still has over 40 oz at that point) you only consume about 6 oz on a 1/4 mile run and none unless you get into the gas (above 4 lbs boost). so for daily driving its always there ready to take on any challengers
bang for buck alky has to be the best out there as it doesnt require special parts to make it fast , no fancy intercoolers , no big turbos , even with stock injectors , just get a good alky chip
if going fast is your goal and doing it on 93 will be your means be prepared for a lot of money invested in parts and time porting and get a few extra sets of head gaskets
Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Some people just wanna do things the hard way.
JDSfastGN
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2001
guys i agree it is the hard way but its not DUMB as some have put it. Just because 17 psi and pump gas can make the power to get you to 11.9 or something lower doesn't mean he is more likely to blow a headgasket or blow the motor. If the combo is tuned right and runs with no knock, he is no more likely to blow a headgasket than somebody that runs high 12s on pump gas alone. The faster you are on pump gas the faster your gonna be on race gas period. I think he's just looking for a ride on the street that can run great right off the bat and at that point it can only get faster with alky or race gas added later. If he wants to port the heads then go for it, there is no downside to it. If hes not looking to go the absolute fastest for the cheapest and money is not a big issue then why not port the heads, cam, and other specifics so he can meet his goal?
Fugitive I prefer 50# injectors but they used to be the biggest available with out upgrading the ecm, but now there are 60#ers available. Either will work well. Turbo is real dependent on your stall and your long term ET goal on race gas. If you want 10s then go bigger than a 44/49, if you only want low 11s then its doable if the heads flow well with a 44. Precision and John craig both make exellent turbos imo. Stall is dependent on your turbo size and once you figure that out the convertor desision will fall into place. Intercoolers you can go with a stock location such as the PTE, Mease, or Thunderfab and all will meet your goals and look stock at the same time. Chip: There are lotsa good chip burners out there right now but im partial to Eric Marshals at Turbotweak. good luck on your build up.
Fugitive I prefer 50# injectors but they used to be the biggest available with out upgrading the ecm, but now there are 60#ers available. Either will work well. Turbo is real dependent on your stall and your long term ET goal on race gas. If you want 10s then go bigger than a 44/49, if you only want low 11s then its doable if the heads flow well with a 44. Precision and John craig both make exellent turbos imo. Stall is dependent on your turbo size and once you figure that out the convertor desision will fall into place. Intercoolers you can go with a stock location such as the PTE, Mease, or Thunderfab and all will meet your goals and look stock at the same time. Chip: There are lotsa good chip burners out there right now but im partial to Eric Marshals at Turbotweak. good luck on your build up.
streetknight
DCVING
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Everyone wants to try things there own way. Sometimes you spend a lot of money backing up. The absolute easiest and cheapest way to run the numbers you want are pretty simple. My first observation is that you don't have a boost guage or scan tool. IMO you need these 2 items before you get insurance on the car. Read all you can before you start.
You said you don't wanna run alky, but Razor's kit is probably the best engineered product I've seen for a TR in some years. It's got a low fuel light and trust me If I can run it you can.
I'd buy Razor's kit, a turbo tweak chip, good exhaust, and have fun. But learn all you can before you go spending a ton of money. I learned the expensive way on my last TR.
Hope this helps
You said you don't wanna run alky, but Razor's kit is probably the best engineered product I've seen for a TR in some years. It's got a low fuel light and trust me If I can run it you can.
I'd buy Razor's kit, a turbo tweak chip, good exhaust, and have fun. But learn all you can before you go spending a ton of money. I learned the expensive way on my last TR.
Hope this helps
This board is full of nay sayers.... Running 11s on pump can be done. Don't listen to the detractors.
I did it on pump gas and a stock converter and stock computer.
HOWEVER, you will need a bigger turbo, bigger heads... plenty of fuel and a front mount intercooler. A cam is debatable.
It is not cheap and it will cost several thousands to get you there, but 11s on pump is a breeze.
Alky is not necessary to get there.
Currently I have run a 7.25 in the 1/8th on pure pump gas letting out because I was on the limiter.I think with a decent 60ft 6s are within reach on pure pump.
I do have a mid 10 sec car on race gas though.
PT54
CASv2
GN1s
212/212 flat tappet
3600 stall
TH400
F.A.S.T.
S0 I am pretty modded.
GRANDNATS :
I am not trying to be a nay sayer . I am trying to help the guy out ! It is alot smarter and safer to start with a alky kit . Nobody is telling the poor guy once he does run race gas he has to buy 10 - 02 sensors .
And also please dont try to tune your car to run pump gas on my track because I will have to wait for them to clean it up after it blows the crank out of the bottom of the block .
Why even krack the engine open before need be . "THAT IS STUPID < AND IF ANYBODY HAS DONE IT I THINK ITS DUMB !" runner tell she's hurt . Get all you can out of it . Get a good tune . Dont just thow your money at it . Youll be one of these guys with a sig that looks like a "HARTLINE parts catalog"and in small writing at the end it reads " no alky - 12.20
And while I am on a roll , will you guys PLEASE STOP BUYING 4000000 # injectors to go 12's and 11's . My TR in the past went 11.40 118 mph on 40 # injectors . No alky .
ED is running 37 # injectors in the mid 11's . So come on boys and girls spend your money wisely .
If money is no option then he would have ask how can I go 9's on pump gas .
I am not trying to be a nay sayer . I am trying to help the guy out ! It is alot smarter and safer to start with a alky kit . Nobody is telling the poor guy once he does run race gas he has to buy 10 - 02 sensors .
And also please dont try to tune your car to run pump gas on my track because I will have to wait for them to clean it up after it blows the crank out of the bottom of the block .
Why even krack the engine open before need be . "THAT IS STUPID < AND IF ANYBODY HAS DONE IT I THINK ITS DUMB !" runner tell she's hurt . Get all you can out of it . Get a good tune . Dont just thow your money at it . Youll be one of these guys with a sig that looks like a "HARTLINE parts catalog"and in small writing at the end it reads " no alky - 12.20
And while I am on a roll , will you guys PLEASE STOP BUYING 4000000 # injectors to go 12's and 11's . My TR in the past went 11.40 118 mph on 40 # injectors . No alky .
ED is running 37 # injectors in the mid 11's . So come on boys and girls spend your money wisely .
If money is no option then he would have ask how can I go 9's on pump gas .
While I don't feel as strongly as tsturbo on the subject I also hate to see people with a zillion high dollar parts going 12's or maybe high 11's...Also I wouldn't try to go 11's with a stock converter...Possible yes, but come on he has so many limitations he put on his 11 sec. run.
If you are gonna run 11's on pump gas the car HAVE to 60' awesome, and I think you need a good converter to do that great...Can you 60' good with a stock converter yes, great probably not.
If you are gonna run 11's on pump gas the car HAVE to 60' awesome, and I think you need a good converter to do that great...Can you 60' good with a stock converter yes, great probably not.
Originally posted by tsturbo
GRANDNATS :
I am not trying to be a nay sayer . I am trying to help the guy out ! It is alot smarter and safer to start with a alky kit . Nobody is telling the poor guy once he does run race gas he has to buy 10 - 02 sensors .
And also please dont try to tune your car to run pump gas on my track because I will have to wait for them to clean it up after it blows the crank out of the bottom of the block .
Why even krack the engine open before need be . "THAT IS STUPID < AND IF ANYBODY HAS DONE IT I THINK ITS DUMB !" runner tell she's hurt . Get all you can out of it . Get a good tune . Dont just thow your money at it . Youll be one of these guys with a sig that looks like a "HARTLINE parts catalog"and in small writing at the end it reads " no alky - 12.20
And while I am on a roll , will you guys PLEASE STOP BUYING 4000000 # injectors to go 12's and 11's . My TR in the past went 11.40 118 mph on 40 # injectors . No alky .
ED is running 37 # injectors in the mid 11's . So come on boys and girls spend your money wisely .
If money is no option then he would have ask how can I go 9's on pump gas .
I tune for zero knock. No knock is NO knock.
and if it is not knocking, whats the differance between race gas or pump??????
and I will run 10s on pure pump gas...no knock so no need to worry about my crank.
