Honing without torque plates

[Mike T]

I have read about cylinders distorting after the heads and main caps are installed. When my block was bored/honed we did not use torque plates because this was going to be a "get me by motor" until I build my stage II block.

I still have not built the other motor and this one is now leaking water so it needs to come apart. Since I didn't use torque plates I am curious if there will be high and low spot that show up in the cross hatch. It never had any oil consumption issues or blow by and the motor still has very good/even compression.

I know using torque plates is the correct way but is it really necessary and do you think I will see the cylinder distortion in the crosshatch ?

 

[SHADOWII]

You are correct, the torque plate is "good insurance", but may not always be necessary. Depending on the # of miles you have on the block, it doesn't seem to have effected it's performance. It's anybody's guess as to whether or not it will be apparent w/o first looking.

 

[87GNSteve]

I agree with the above since there is always another level of what "should be done" like torquing all fasteners that bolt to the block, then there is bringing the block up to operating temp when honing, etc etc...if its a just get by engine you'll be fine.

 

[fastblackracing]

You will probly see some weird looking areas in the first inch or so of the bore. this will happen even on engines that have been torque plated. Torque plating and minimizing ring end gaps are nice but really only needed if your building a serious engine. Our turbos help make up the power the N/A guys are trying to find with all the small details.

 

[earlbrown]

With my personal first hand experience, the torque plate DEFINITELY moves the bores around. After final honing my 3.8 block and my 4.1 block back to back, they both distorted when I removed the plate.

 

[Mike T]

With my personal first hand experience, the torque plate DEFINITELY moves the bores around. After final honing my 3.8 block and my 4.1 block back to back, they both distorted when I removed the plate.

Do you remember roughly how much it moved and are we talking thousandths or hundred thousandths?

 

[TexasT]

These production blocks are flimsy . I would consider it mandatory to use a torque plate on any build using the production block.

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[earlbrown]

Do you remember roughly how much it moved and are we talking thousandths or hundred thousandths?

little over 1- 1/2 thou all over the place. Saw close to 2-1/2 thou in a couple spots per hole.


What was interesting is that I put the plate back on and the bores went back to round within about 1/2 a tenth. Tourqing up the motor mounts didn't seem to matter. I didn't try it with the mains tight and loosened.

I was curious how much the main studs would distort the bottoms but the way the honing machine is setup, it just wasn't worth it at the time (which is slang for ''we were almost out of beer that night'')

 

[SHADOWII]

little over 1- 1/2 thou all over the place. Saw close to 2-1/2 thou in a couple spots per hole.


What was interesting is that I put the plate back on and the bores went back to round within about 1/2 a tenth. Tourqing up the motor mounts didn't seem to matter. I didn't try it with the mains tight and loosened.

I was curious how much the main studs would distort the bottoms but the way the honing machine is setup, it just wasn't worth it at the time (which is slang for ''we were almost out of beer that night'')

Thanks Earl, that is some great info for those of us trying to squeeze out the hp/torque w/these stock blocks and I think MikeT will probably use it on the new engine. Thanks again for sharing!

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Ask Turbodave231 on that. He very experienced in that area. He lives in a machine shop.

 

[Mike T]

This is what I found after 10k.

The crosshatch does show signs of distortion and it's mostly where the center cylinders share studs/bolts with the adjacent cylinders. In the first photo if you were to draw a line straight down from the studs you can see a dark spot about the size of a pea in the crosshatch under each stud. In the same photo between those dark spots you can see a dark elongated vertical area. It's my assumption that these are low spots but they must be very minor because the crosshatch is fully visible throughout the cylinders.

The 2nd photo is of the outside cylinder where it does not share a stud and the distortion is almost undetectable.

By no means am I trying to argue that torque plates aren't needed because the cylinders do distorts but if your doing just a mild build I think you would be ok.

 

[rag231]

Why not just use the torque plate and be done with it? The stage 2 game can be weird (frustrating) getting parts. You might look for a long while searching for 4 bolt headers, a champion intake etc,etc........ That kind of stuff can be the difference of cruising the summer or having your car sit with two motors down waiting on parts which truly sucks. The additional machine work is well worth it if you have the engine torn down for whatever reason already.

 

[Mike T]

Why not just use the torque plate and be done with it? The stage 2 game can be weird (frustrating) getting parts. You might look for a long while searching for 4 bolt headers, a champion intake etc,etc........ That kind of stuff can be the difference of cruising the summer or having your car sit with two motors down waiting on parts which truly sucks. The additional machine work is well worth it if you have the engine torn down for whatever reason already.

The torque plates are the right way to do it.

Some guys may not have access to torque plates and I thought this may be helpful to someone who's in that situation.

It may not appeal to some but I try to post as many pictures as I can in the hopes that it may help someone understand what's being discussed.



This is a virgin block that I've owned for quite some time and I also have been collecting parts for it over the years. You can bet torque plates will be used on it.

 

[earlbrown]

Mike, does the flash make that crosshatch look coarse as hell or is it really that rough?

 

[Mike T]

Mike, does the flash make that crosshatch look coarse as hell or is it really that rough?

Earl the machine work was done several years ago and I honestly can't tell you what the final ra was . The machinist did ask what rings were being used so that he could put the proper finish on it. It may just look weird from the photos because It doesn't feel rough in any way.

I can say that he gets an A on the bore sizing....before putting it together I filed a ring to fit the #1 cylinder and it could be installed in any cylinder on the block and have the exact same end gap. I did wonder about the angle of the crosshatch though.

 

[earlbrown]

Angle of the crosshatch means nothing. That's some left over BS from the old days... When it was acceptable to burn oil and engines were lucky to last any amount of miles.

I'm assuming you went with moly rings on the build. The finish needed for those is smooth smooth smooth.