i have a ? about unions

Yes

How do you put in less than you can take by such a large spread ?? Are unions ponzi sceams??



The worker puts in a certain percentage of their hourly wages over a 30-40 year period. That $ is invested and allowed to grow that 30-40 years (remember Bush wanting to put SS $ in the market). Another way I know of many worker retire and die shortly there after.[/QUOTE]

your second answer .. if everyone in the union lived 10-15 years after retirement the union would have crashed along time ago . it just saddens me that a union i worked so hard for is counting on me to die quickly after i retire so as not to bring them down .and pushing the retirement age to 67-70 only betters the odds in their favor
 
if thats where you were going with the OATH thing .i will say this you can count on me only if you fall on the RIGHT side of the issue at hand in time

The worker puts in a certain percentage of their hourly wages over a 30-40 year period. That $ is invested and allowed to grow that 30-40 years (remember Bush wanting to put SS $ in the market). Another way I know of many worker retire and die shortly there after.

your second answer .. if everyone in the union lived 10-15 years after retirement the union would have crashed along time ago . it just saddens me that a union i worked so hard for is counting on me to die quickly after i retire so as not to bring them down .and pushing the retirement age to 67-70 only betters the odds in their favor

OK, now I'm just confused. Are there more than one of you posting under this handle killer?
First you make a disturbing statement like some radical right-wing extremist whackjob. Then you acknowledge that the money put in wouldn't have to equal the payout to just break even, over time served contributing and with interest. You even acknowledge that the whole point is to count on your early 'termination' of the contractual obligation they owe you. Sad but true, but you sound totally sensible. So, which is it? I'd like to believe the second, but that first point (when ignoring the "foreign" part) sounded pointedly like political affiliation and ideology would be a part of your thought process in defending the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of your fellow countrymen. Surely, if your reasonable, you recognize that the whole point of the First Ammendment is to provide for open discussion and disagreement which would logically lead to a centrist position, recognizing the good aspects of each side?
 
Protect connie

im a servant of the constitution but .. orders to protect connie come from the president of the U.S.A. down the chain of command .. it seems lately the connie is like a rule that needs to be broken and if the president no longer honors the connie i would no longer honor and serv our president. i would not want to be the the guy putting my fellow americans in an internment camp like we did in ww2 . hope this keeps me off your RIGHT WING NUTJOB LIST .
 
Hey man, maybe I worry too much sometimes. But it's always in the hope to continue respecting you professionals. You are the only thing that keeps the rest of us free to have any opinion. Not, like you say, in camps, or victims of some religious inquisition or other such extremism. That stuff actually worries me in the polar charged divide and conquer ideologies the mainstream tries to force us into supporting one way or the other, like union issues.
 
The difference is the way private sector and public sector union contracts are approved.
Private sector, the money is coming out of the business owners pocket and that is who the union is negotiating with.
Public sector, the money is coming out of the taxpayers pockets and the contract are approved by elected officials that receive campaign funds from the unions.
THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE -- TOTAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

They sell pensions on returns from investments - total pie in the sky. Calif and all of its cities and countries are buried in billions of dollars of unfunded liability. That's pension money due that isn't in the bank. On a average employee pensions are costing CA govt (inc cities and counties) 50% of their budgets. That's average - so some are in real deep $hit.

Hazardous duty employees, cops, firemen, landfill workers, etc are on the program where they get 90% of highest pay after 30 years service as a pension. I read the other day where 3/4 of the firemen appeal their pensions and win disabled pensions which pay much more.

thats right and thanks about 96% of union pensions or not fully funded thats why they push so hard to get new blood [fedex walmart] they need their money before the ponzi sceam blows up .. so im guessing by the time i turn 65 my pension will be in line with SS .. they tell me my pension should be about $2700. a month at 65 now .. but i never put in more than $400 a month .. bernie madoff must have been union

atleast two govoners have the right idea but lets just see how this all pans out and how they will be saved and by who .. should get pretty dirty in new jersey&wisconsin and somebodys gonna pay hope its not the tax payers anymore . im guessing most of the unions will implode in the next couple of months leaveing us with the bill

What govt employees pay into their retirement is a small fraction of what they will receive. The Unions sell this BS on "pie-in-the-sky" returns on investments that never happen. ~15 years ago Orange County, CA went into chap 11 bankruptcy because their head of finance was investing in very volatile high yield stocks, well his house of cards fell and the county went broke. Now they are billions in debt to unfunded retirement promises. Will the retirees suffer, no, but the taxpayers sure will in the form of fewer services, higher fees for those services and higher taxes.

The unions will not implode, but they will be spending millions of their members dollars to stay in business. And the elected will side with the unions because that's where their campaign money and votes come from.

Those of you in NJ and WI can keep tabs on the union money spent and the TV shock ads showing houses burning and people being robbed babies dying etc all because of the lack of fire and police protection as the unions lie to maintain status quo.

You might be right about striking while the coal's were hot, (Pension/Health Care),,, But I think what OilMan is talking about is why do unions (Fireman, Cops, Teachers) think they are intiteled to so much of the tax payers hard earned money .:wink: Im sure you did your math on when, and how you will pay off your house, and how much you will need when you hit the big 60,;) But for most of the early kids in there 20's there might not be that diamond at the end of the trail...:mad: Nothing is forever Union or not,,,, The direction our country is going in, There will be a bag of coal at the end of the trail.. You might see the fire department go to all volunteer in the future... Very sad but true.. Never say Never.. I am self employed, and know how much health care cost for a family.. Last time I looked it was about 14k Per Year with a 3K Deduct...:eek::eek: I have always said that most union workers and people on medicade will never know how much they (Should) appreciate there Insurance until they halft to pay for it.....:rolleyes: I am one, that thinks goverment work should be out sourced.. Private companys should have the right to bid on jobs, Such as Grading county roads.. I Would bet you if this would happen the roads would be smooth as glass,,, and you might even see a worker out working past 3pm..........

I don't get myself involved in these political threads. I'm a LEO in NJ and we (PBA) have held back the real truth about what's really going. Hint: Remember what Enron did to its employees. Just keep reading/believing the politicians smoking window.

If I post what the real truth is maybe you might a different view.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
so enlighten me

While I can not comment on the teacher’s retirement system, I can speak about the Police and Fire Retirement Fund (PFRS).

The state of New Jersey enacted a law which required police officers and firemen to contribute a certain percentage of their salary into the state’s “secure” pension fund. I pay 8.5 percent of my salary, as mandated by law, into this fund every pay period.

I was not given the option to place my 8.5 percent in an IRA or other investment fund. The money is placed into the PFRS with the promise that the money would be there when I retired. By law, towns and municipalities were required to match that 8.5 percent.

By the time Gov. Christine Todd Whitman took office, there was over $100 billion in the fund. This meant that at the current rate of retirements, pension costs for police officers and firemen were funded at 104 percent, well into the future. This was a prudent and financially responsible plan that worked, and it provided security for the families of these men and woman who risked their lives every day serving and protecting the citizens of New Jersey.

In no way was it heavily over funded or excessive. It covered the costs of promised retirements with a small cushion left over. It was at this time that Whitman stepped in. Gov. Whitman recognized the billions of dollars in our “secure” and “separate” pension fund, and she proceeded to raid that fund. Unknown and unannounced to the public, monies were indiscriminately withdrawn from the PFRS and used to pay for Whitman’s tax cuts and to balance the state budget.

Billions of dollars were taken, and to make matters worse, the Whitman administration passed a law allowing towns and municipalities to no longer contribute to the fund. Over $3 billion in contributions were skipped over the next eight years, while the individual police officers and firefighters continued to have their 8.5 percent contribution taken from them and placed into the PFRS.

The state gambled for years, relying heavily on the returns from the stock market to cover the missing funds. Politicians misspoke on the campaign trail, touting the virtues of how their financial genius was able to balance their state and local budgets, and the public was lulled into a sense of false financial security.

But the small print in Whitman’s bill was ignored. The funds they failed to contribute would have to be made up at a later date. The pension reprieve was temporary and their contributions would have to be paid back, just like any other loan. It was quietly suggested by the Whitman administration that towns set these contributions aside for when the state called to make good on them. It appears most towns and municipalities failed to heed this advice.

Governors (Donald) DiFrancesco, (James) McGreevy, and (Richard) Codey continued this trend, and all failed to call the towns and municipalities on their “loan” while the PFRS fund continued to dwindle down close to $66 billion. They remained silent. To bring this to light at this point would certainly mean political suicide, knowing that towns and municipalities would have to raise taxes to make up for their error in financial judgment and planning.

It wasn’t until Gov. Jon Corzine took office that this trend was stopped, but unfortunately, the damage was done. Gov. Corzine made the call the governors before him were afraid to make. He advised the towns and municipalities that it was time to pay back the monies the towns had been given a temporary reprieve on. And the media jumped on this, printing bold headlines “Towns going broke over police and fire pensions.”

This attention grabbing and misleading headline made it appear that your police and firemen were bilking the taxpayers dry, when the truth is totally the opposite. The politicians bilked your police officers and firemen dry and in the long run, the tax payers of New Jersey.

Towns and municipalities knew they were going to have to pay this money back and for them to insinuate otherwise is simply not true. Realizing the gravity of the situation, a new bill was introduced and passed into law. This allowed the towns to pay back the loan given to them by their public employees in increments; starting at 20 percent, 40 percent, 60 percent, 80 percent, and finally 100 percent each proceeding year.

Towns and municipalities continue to act as if they have been caught unaware and shocked by this entire process. The public is being told that payments for police and fire pensions are doubling, tripling and quadrupling and that the public employee system is out of control. What the public needs to know is that they are the victims of a mounting debt that was created by the Whitman administration and compounded by those following her tenure.

To blame your public employees for the abuses of the pension system is ludicrous at best, especially when our elected officials are the ones responsible for raiding the fund and then enacting the legislation on how and when to pay it back.

Gov. Jim Florio recognized the financial hardship facing the state of New Jersey and proceeded to raise the state sales tax to 7 percent. This helped spell political suicide for him, and Gov. Whitman was not going to make the same mistake. She repealed the 7 percent, dropping it back down to the 6 percent, knowing full well this money would have to come from somewhere.

Her solution was to raid the Police and Fire Pension System, allowing her to balance the state budget and give the false appearance that all was fiscally sound under her watch.

Our current governor, facing the same financial crisis of those going before him, has chosen a similar route, but one with a more vilifying tone. He has again found the same victim: Your public employees. When asked about the pension situation in the state of New Jersey, Gov. Chris Christie replied “I wasn’t going to put $3 billion into a failing pension system. We need pension reform. I passed some already for new hirees, and this fall we are going after the current employees and pension reform and benefits because we are broke.”

Nowhere does he mention how the public employees had already bailed out this state years before, and now he is focused on “going after” the current employees to fix a mess created and compounded by politicians. To say otherwise for him would be political suicide should he aspire to higher political office, and as most of those before him, he is not about to risk his future. Rather, he would gamble on the future of those men and woman and their families who have served this state with honor and integrity.

The principals of the pension system are not broken Mr. Governor. What is broken is the manner in which the politicians have treated and abused it. Yes, the system is failing now, but not because of your police officers and firemen. As of 2009, the pension fund should have assets of $112 billion to meet its obligations, yet it is currently sitting at $66 billion.

It is the largest unfunded liability in the country. New Jersey is the first state ever to be charged with fraud by the Securities and Exchange Commission, and Gov. Christie, strangely, has no comment on this. Yet he continues his rhetoric on the evils done to us by our police officers and firemen, ignoring the truth and lambasting and vilifying us at every turn.

As the saying goes, “Politics has no shame when it comes to preserving your place in office. Why let the truth get in between a good, attention grabbing headline?”

The system is on the brink of collapse and continued arrogance and mudslinging will not fix it. Politicians put us in this mess for their own political gain

Oh yea, we have this diaster of a mall being put up along the NJ Turnpike call Xanadu. Guess where the state got part of the money from......yep from the pension fund.

There is more to this but that was the basic part. Just don't believe eveything you hear/read on the TV or newspaper.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com
 
? Is

what fund they didnt they take money from i think every and all funds were raided same problem in indiana look up our man mitch he leased our toll road to spain for 75 years for 4 billion . at last count were losing 71 billion as taxpayers for that deal alone .. so i understand completly. but then take a look at who helps these people get elected . poly means many. tic is a blood sucking insect.pretty much sums it up
 
Looks like Ohio just killed the unions and I don't believe I will retiring now.
 
I don't know what's going to happen.

We knew what would happen the moment a former Goldman Sachs banker, now puppet for the occupying force set against the people of the US was elected as our Governor based on the misinformed public's perception of our direction. There's no coincidence in his 'placement' into our 'swingstate' govt. Same agenda as Ken Blackwell's infiltration of the NRA. We need to throw these bums in jail for trying to 'legalize' our slavery. Some of them surely need to be hung from gallows in state capitols and left for the birds as an example.
 
Moderators, please move this to the Political section.
 
Moderators, please move this to the Political section.

Awe, cmon Pronto, you've got the mouse, click it away.

Might be good for a few to see a conversation of actual importance in the safe environment of 'the lounge' if they choose to click on it.

I clicked on the duramax thread while I don't really give a crap about em, and found a little something I didn't know the minute before.

That's what's nice about the lounge, you learn about random topics, even if ya wish ya hadn't clicked on some.;)
 
Funny, I clicked the duramax thread too. I've never owned one of those things. It's hard not to mention since the question was about unions. Scary times in Ohio...
 
With little if any (I think its none) collective bargaining for public employees in the great state of Texas who are you gonna blame for their massive deficits/debt?
 
hum

We knew what would happen the moment a former Goldman Sachs banker, now puppet for the occupying force set against the people of the US was elected as our Governor based on the misinformed public's perception of our direction. There's no coincidence in his 'placement' into our 'swingstate' govt. Same agenda as Ken Blackwell's infiltration of the NRA. We need to throw these bums in jail for trying to 'legalize' our slavery. Some of them surely need to be hung from gallows in state capitols and left for the birds as an example.

you called me radical .. tell us how you really feel
 
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