I only want to buy injectors once

[GNVYUS 1]

Injector-Rehab - Fuel injector cleaning, flow testing, and complete blueprinting service.

Use the above to find the injector you'd need on gas.

Use .6 since you're turbocharged, .65 if your engine builder knows how to produce madd Volumetric Efficiency #'s.

When I plugged in 600hp and .6, the injector on gas was 75lbs. Then multiply that # by .3 (30% for E85) and you get 97.5lb injectors are needed on E85 to produce 600hp with an 80% DC.

So the 120's would allow you some power growth on E85 as long as you have the pump volume at your WOT fuel pressure. I'd sway from pushing injectors past 85% at these power #'s so you guarantee a great spray pattern.

The Bosch pump will not be a restriction as you're going to turn it on around 10psi anyways.

BTW, I don't remember if you said the A1000 was intank or external?

 

[turbo6man]

thanks GNVYUS 1 that is great information, I sumped my stock tank and the aeromotive pump is external and about 10 inches from the sump. Where do you recommend getting the bosch 044 pump from.

 

[87GN_70GS]

I don't know where this A1000 curve on the chart came from but I don't think it is right. The data on the following chart came from the manufacturer (Aeromotive):

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...1-fuel-flow-graph-bigger-pumps-injectors.html

It is showing quite a bit more flow than the 044.

Also, a single 044 will not be sufficient for 120# injectors. Look on the above chart where the 120# injector characteristic curve crosses the 044 pump curve. You will not get more than ~42 psi. This is at 100% dc but you get the point. If you assume say 83% dc, and this is convienent becuase 120's at 83% is equivalent to 100# static, the 100# injecor curve crosses the 044 curve only at 50 psi. So even at 83% dc, the 044 is still not enough pump. I doubt a bosch 413 will be enough.

You need a pump that crosses the 120# inj curve above 65-70 psi. Pumps that would do the job are Magna 4301, Fuellab 41402, Sx 18207, Aeromotive eliminator, Weldon 2032-a, etc

 

[GNVYUS 1]

87GN, you're right, the two charts are not showing similar #'s. I bet the chart I have is at 12v as you can see your chart has the A1000 at 13.5 volts.

Here is a great site to do fuel conversions,
VALUE CONVERTER

If you look at 87GNs chart, at 70psi it looks like the A1000 is 115gph, that's WAY more than my chart has, when converted it's 435 LPH.

Turbo6man, since you're already sumped and external on the A1000, just slap the Bosch in front of it and you're volume will be HUGE since both are external.

IMO, a fuel system is like the DP, just slap on the baddest momma that will fit and move on.

 

[87GN_70GS]

GNVYUS, I went back and looked at the manuf website for flowchart numbers for the A1000. The current numbers are a bit lower now. I think they must've changed it recently or I just copied down the wrong numbers. Either way, I will have to revise the chart, since that curve is not correct now.

 

[turbo6man]

Hey I have another thought, after reading the difference in flow on the A1000 from 12 to 13.5 volts, what about adding a Kenne Bell boost a pump instead of the additional bosch pump. The boost a pump can increase the voltage up to a continuous 17.5 volts under boost for the street application unit or up to 20 volts for the competition one. It is also very close in price to the extra pump. here is the link Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump and here is some more info http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/BAPtheory_kens.pdf Thanks James

 

[GNVYUS 1]

You probably already have the A1000 hot wired so it's seeing 13.5. Personally the A1000 is not a great daily driver pump, now start adding 17 volts to it, even occasionally, and you're lowering it's life even more. It would blow to get stuck somewhere and spend hundreds on a tow instead of on another pump.

2nd, one pump isn't going to cut it with your setup at 30psi, even with the 120's. The extra injector is only going to make up for so much pump volume loss and you'll have very little to nothing to increase power with if you run only one pump.

It blows, but big power and E85 means all the $$ you save on high octane gas, you put back in your fuel system.

 

[turbo6man]

Check this out Dual 044 Fuel Pump Mounting Kit With Surge Tank - 034 MOTORSPORT

 

[blackmonte]

Nice set-up , I like the surge tank!

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Yep, that will git er done.

Aside from that being around $700 setup with pumps (not the Q2 pumps), you'd have to swap out the stock fuel regulator as both pumps running at the same time would overpower the small return orifice in the stock reg. You'd need something like what Turbofabricator created or a new return setup all together (Aeromotive reg etc).

 

[turbo6man]

Well I spoke to Jack Cotton and he made me a great deal on a used set of 160's and a start up program. I installed them and it fired right up and the throttle response and cruising are great! I will say that when fine tuning the idle a one digit number change on the F.A.S.T. makes a much larger impact on the wideband than the 75's or 83's. I have tuned it up to 18psi of boost and the AFR was stable and the injector DC maxed at 53% I am very happy:smile:. I think I will add the additional pump and hobbs switch before I go over 20psi boost. One other thing I noticed, On the transbrake now if I stage it hard to 12psi boost the convertor slips to 5100rpm's this is Way to high as the reccomended stall for my turbo is 3600. Well if it is not one thing its another :biggrin: Thanks for everyone's input it has been really appreciated. James

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Plenty of room now with 160's especially when you add the extra pump for volume.

I'd be curious how quickly you'd max out those injectors on one pump, not that you should do it though. But maybe see how much boost until 80% DC would still be safe at your given AF/R. This data would be useful to others with somewhat similar combos on what to expect.

Whoa, just noticed you have a liquid intercooler and E85, that will be hard to find knock with a proper AF/R.

 

[87GN_70GS]

I'd be curious how quickly you'd max out those injectors on one pump, not that you should do it though. But maybe see how much boost until 80% DC would still be safe at your given AF/R. This data would be useful to others with somewhat similar combos on what to expect.

I'm going to say, with one pump, 53% dc is the max. I'd be surprised if his fuel pressure wasn't dipping a bit right now.

 

[turbo6man]

installed the 044

Well I installed the 044 in series with the A1000 today and I had an issue, When I run it with the hobbs switch so the 044 does not come on until 3psi, the A1000 is working so unbelievably hard. I took off the line before the 044 and turn the key on and the A1000 flows like a garden hose. But if I take the line off past the 044 and turn on the A1000 it groans and it looses a ton of volume. When I start it with only the A1000 it idles at 28psi which it usually idles at 40psi. Now with that said when I make the 044 run all the time fuel pressure at idle is back to 39psi but the A1000 is running nice and easy. I drove with both pumps on all the time and slowly worked my way back to 17.6 psi boost. Well I viewed the old data logs from the A1000 by itself compared to both pumps. At 17.6 psi boost the wideband correction was the same as so is the injector duty cycle. I thought I would see a difference but there was none. I am sure that will change when the boost is higher.
I installed the pump with the larger -10AN connector as the inlet side and the smaller(this is the side of the pump with the wire lugs) connector as the outlet or pressure side. I removed the one way valve and used aeroequip an fittings.
Why am I having an issue running the 044 with a hobbs switch.
Thanks, James

 

[it's just a six]

Check this out
Quote"The coolest part about that set up is that the injectors are 212lbs high imp injectors that work on the stock PCM.

They where at 52% duty cycle and can idle at 14.7-1.

Nolan "
YouTube - 427" Twin Turbo LSX

My friend Rich did the cyl heads.
Here is the build
http://s943.photobucket.com/albums/...ive/2002 Trans Am Twin Turbo LSX 427 - Bill/

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Usually a 3psi drop is seem at the rail with an 044 (off) inline with a Walbro 255, you're seeing an 11psi drop, wow.

There should've been a big FPR creep when the 044 was on at idle with the A1000, you're saying it stayed the same, this is odd, I had a 3psi base creep going from the W340 to the Supra pump alone.

Call Aeromotive Friday, they've done these for years and can walk you through it. Somethings not adding up here as both of these pumps puts you well over 1000hp on gas and if you're able to keep a 39psi base pressure with the stock GN AFPR, then the 044's not really on, wiring is messed up or that pumps a dud.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Well I installed the 044 in series with the A1000 today and I had an issue, When I run it with the hobbs switch so the 044 does not come on until 3psi, the A1000 is working so unbelievably hard. I took off the line before the 044 and turn the key on and the A1000 flows like a garden hose. But if I take the line off past the 044 and turn on the A1000 it groans and it looses a ton of volume. When I start it with only the A1000 it idles at 28psi which it usually idles at 40psi. Now with that said when I make the 044 run all the time fuel pressure at idle is back to 39psi but the A1000 is running nice and easy. I drove with both pumps on all the time and slowly worked my way back to 17.6 psi boost. Well I viewed the old data logs from the A1000 by itself compared to both pumps. At 17.6 psi boost the wideband correction was the same as so is the injector duty cycle. I thought I would see a difference but there was none. I am sure that will change when the boost is higher.
I installed the pump with the larger -10AN connector as the inlet side and the smaller(this is the side of the pump with the wire lugs) connector as the outlet or pressure side. I removed the one way valve and used aeroequip an fittings.
Why am I having an issue running the 044 with a hobbs switch.
Thanks, James

Do not run those two (A1000 and 044) in series unless the Bosch is first. The A1000 is the more capable pump at low pressures (130 gph vs 85)- which is where it will be trying to work if the 044 is after it. But it can't because its like trying to push thru a straw. With the 044 first, it is delivering into nearly zero pressure (into the inlet of the A1000). With both operating, you'll get more fuel above 70 psi, which is where the A1000 starts to fall below the 044.

 

[jdpolzin]

Do not run those two (A1000 and 044) in series unless the Bosch is first. The A1000 is the more capable pump at low pressures (130 gph vs 85)- which is where it will be trying to work if the 044 is after it. But it can't because its like trying to push thru a straw. With the 044 first, it is delivering into nearly zero pressure (into the inlet of the A1000). With both operating, you'll get more fuel above 70 psi, which is where the A1000 starts to fall below the 044.

Wouldnt you want to run the pumps parallel to each other? I cant see how either way you would put it in series with each would work. Either way, the 044 is going to restrict the flow.

 

[turbo6man]

Time to rethink.

OK I am going to rethink this thing. It is only a matter of time before the A1000 fails, "and it will fail". I am going to go another route. My neighbor is building a 72 pinto wagon with a turbocharged 4 cyl, so I am going to sell him the 044 for what I paid for it and I am going to go with a single pump. from what I have checked I like the fuelab pumps because they have a built high and low speed control and they seem to be a nice design (brushless). What do you guys think of fuelab and which one would you run. Or if you think some other pump would be better I am open to suggestions.

 

[87GN_70GS]

I don't have any personal experience with relaibilty of the fuelab pumps, but the 41402-1 should have enough capacity to do roughly 80% dc of your 160#'s. The weldon 2032-A is real close on performnace to the 41402-1. The weldon 2025 has even more flow. I would ask about people's experience with weldon.