Intercooler gains with Alky?

[ACLR8R]

With the alky lowering the intake temp already will the intercooler make that much of a difference? I know it will probably still be an improvement but will I see the same gain as a car without alcohol? Some of the big SLIC intercoolers say it should be about .4 and 5+mph on a normal 12 sec GN, I am just wondering if I will see the same gain?
Just curious
Thanks

 

[Robbie-87plz]

I'm thinking...

...Being the "newbie" I"ll take a shot at this and someone can correct me if I'm wrong...
1. Anything done to improve the stock intercooler will improve the efficiency of the engine.
a. Dutt neck
b. stretched stock intercooler
c. aftermarket stock location intercooler
d. last resort for the quick guys, a FMIC

2. Alcohol/water/methane injection will lower the air intake temp if done properly.

Either of the two will get you there quickly, the IC, due to the virtue of it being better design, the alchy due to it lower the temp and overcoming the not so great "heat exchanging capabilities" of the IC.

So if I'm not mistaken, it all comes into a circle...better intercooling by a well designed or the lowering effects of the alchy. My opinion? Do both and enjoy the rewards of hard earned cash and research.

Well? Am I barking up the wrong tree or did I help?

 

[DeltaT]

Remember that the IC will take out a percentage of the heat in the air charge, while alky will reduce the temperature a set amount given its volume and disperal after injection. Together would be the best, if you need that amount of fuel enrichment still after the charge has been cooled. You should see about the same results together as you would adding the two separate effects. +-10% I would say.

Jim

 

[Razor]

The Giant IC Bandaid

Looking as heat is one issue, then we have octane.

See even if the temps coming into your motor are ambient at 25 PSI.. there is no way due to cylinder pressure your going to run that on 93 octane.

Typically doing a bigger IC(FM), and updating the cooling(radiator), and some other things it is possible with tuning to see 20 PSI boost on 93 by itself. Some have gotten 24-25..tho that is really rare. Mods to engine..ceramic coatings, compression changes, porting polishing, playing with deck height, Quench, etc all play a role..

Now you get a stock longblock in tune with alcohol inj, and there are cars that have blown past 30 PSI with zero knock and doing so while making power.

Ed's T-type from KC at MIR last fall ran 11.37 with a stock turbo, dutt neck IC, and a stock long block. on 92 octane + alky

The octane benefit is huge.. not to be taken lightly.

HTH

 

[pacecarta]

heres my take on the bigger I/C and razor has mentioned its a lot of money for no gain , well no gain with alky
if you bought his kit youve made great gains for under 500 bucks , now add to that an 800 dollar I/c and you run the same ,

you can take out too much heat to the point that the alky effect can become null , the I/C outlet temp could drop to a point the alky doesnt flash and then all you have is liquid being dumped into the engine not a good thing to promote spool and performance and the air entering the cylinders will be hotter than with alky on , if the temps coming out of the I/C are hotter the alky flashes and cools the charge and you can see ambient temps and no liguid in the cylinders , the air will be cooler and no liquid , fast spool and hold on performance

i dont see the need for anything more than a stock and a neck , besides with the stocker its much less aluminum to heat soak between runs and less weight .
if you plan to go alkyless with a new chip (dont try on an alky chip) then the big I/C will definitely show gains in how much boost you can run for the given octane in the tank due to the lowerd outlet temps and the flow improvement which takes strain off the turbo and allows same boost with even less inlet heat .

 

[XLR8]

My car spooled faster with a Thunder Fab intercooler than with the stocker. The quicker spool has to be worth something with or without the alky.

 

[ACLR8R]

So what you are saying is that I wont gain much, if any? The only thing is I feel like I am maxing out the stocker for flow. I raised the boost from 21 to about 23 and actually lost 1mph. I know the turbo should be good for at least 23-24psi with my combo, so I am thinking that the intercooler is the restriction. I am probably still going to get a big stock location (either mease 24 row, or the PTE) and I will take it back to the track and run it at the same boost to see if there actually is a difference, then turn the boost up. I would really like to see a couple more mph (116-118ish) but who knows it might do absolutely nothing. Also I am hopeing that it will help reduce some of the knock I am getting before the Alcohol comes on, the timing in the chip I am running (Reds 100) has it coming in way early for my car. Bottom line is it can only help, right.

 

[Robbie-87plz]

Dutt neck...

Got one?

 

[ACLR8R]

Nope.

 

[Robbie-87plz]

If you have the resources, go for a new FMIC or an aftermarket stock llocation like razor said....in my case, the Dutt neck does the trick...for now...

 

[eddc87]

Re: Dutt neck...

Originally posted by Robbie-87plz
Got one?

I don't have one but if you are interested in converting yours to a Dutt. neck we (DC Tech) can do the fab for around $165. This and the world famous "Razor Kit" allowed me to run 24-25# of boost effectively with a stock turbo. These little turbos generate a lot of heat but with the introduction of methanol they can be pushed further than ever before. They do still run out of air and there is no bandaid for that.

 

[Robbie-87plz]

Dutt neck

I do have the Dutt neck...it was on the car when I purchased it...heard alot of good things about it...

 

[justabuickv6]

I just installed a PS intercooler. I am now running the same ET as I was before the install but at 2 pounds less boost.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by pacecarta

you can take out too much heat to the point that the alky effect can become null , the I/C outlet temp could drop to a point the alky doesnt flash and then all you have is liquid being dumped into the engine not a good thing to promote spool and performance and the air entering the cylinders will be hotter than with alky on , if the temps coming out of the I/C are hotter the alky flashes and cools the charge and you can see ambient temps and no liguid in the cylinders , the air will be cooler and no liquid , fast spool and hold on performance

Have you seen this **downside** (ie the alky not flashing)?. And is *flashing* necessary. On some applications they only allow water, and in the case of Pulling Tractors, the AI generates a huge cloud when being tested. The mild Pulling Tractors run 60 PSI of boost. There might be something gained from looking at what they do.

While at lower temps., you won't need as much, but the alky should still behave the same. It's in large part having fluid dropping from ~100 PSI to ~25 that allows it to evaporate.

The turbulent action within the manifold will also contribute to it being atomized.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Pressure drop is one advantage the IC has over the alky.

I would upgrade to a big stock location IC and run alky. The stock location should gain you 3psi at the turbo for a more efficient and faster spool up. The stocker has at least 3psi of backpressure in it that the turbo has to make up for. You want your turbo to be within its middle island of efficiency. That means you want the least amount backpressure it has to fight through and the upgraded IC can do that.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by DR.BOOSTER
Pressure drop is one advantage the IC has over the alky.

Nope. There is a pressure drop across the intercooler. There's no pressure drop with alky.

http://home.woh.rr.com/brucesgn/intercoolerdelete/

You can, run faster without the stock intercooler, using alky then with the intercooler alone.

Searching will also show the results Cal Hartline got.

BTDT

 

[Boston GN]

Originally posted by bruce
Nope. There is a pressure drop across the intercooler. There's no pressure drop with alky.

http://home.woh.rr.com/brucesgn/intercoolerdelete/

You can, run faster without the stock intercooler, using alky then with the intercooler alone.

Searching will also show the results Cal Hartline got.

BTDT

So Bruce, given my combo below (stock IC and D5 TC) what would be YOUR next upgrade given these two options, Bigger IC or Alcohol?
Just curious
TIA

 

[Razor]

Bill,
You asked a question without being specific as to boost level going to be run. Big difference between 13 PSI and 25 PSI. So you may want to clarify what your trying to accomplish. And octane, timing, street or track vehicle, etc..

Back under my rock.

My take, get rid of the D5 with a bigger turbo. That itself will net at least an easy 1 sec off the 1/4. But thats if 1/4 mile is the goal.

 

[Boston GN]

Yeah you're right Julio, I definitely should have been more specific, my appologies. I really don't think the turbo is that big to merit a converter, but who knows...I surely don't, lol.
That being said, my goals are: Most efficient boost as possible, 93 octane, street/show car w/occasional trip to the track, driven only about 2k a year. I believe I am pushing towards an IC myself, but I will have alky at some point in the future. Whether that is sooner or later is the question. In my other post you stated to get the IC, but I didn't list any goals there either. Maybe this helps

 

[Sweet6]

I would say do the IC first for a mostly driven street car. If the car was track only I would say get the Alky. You will be able to run a few lbs of boost all the time with the IC.