Intercooler Selection question
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Yes, from what we have tested, there is a difference in the intercoolers. The Precision has more restriction and less cooling effiency. With a much thicker core and tanks, it blocks lots of airflow to the radiator.
The Powerstroke intercooler and Cotton's are about equal in performance.
We have developed a front mount based upon the PS which will be tested in the next few weeks. If the production company building them lives up to their initial promise, pricing will be close to the PTE unit, and a "kit" may be offered. This would lower the price considerable for those that can supply some of their own parts.
The Powerstroke intercooler and Cotton's are about equal in performance.
We have developed a front mount based upon the PS which will be tested in the next few weeks. If the production company building them lives up to their initial promise, pricing will be close to the PTE unit, and a "kit" may be offered. This would lower the price considerable for those that can supply some of their own parts.
BobbyBuick
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I ran an eastern down to 10.40s and just put on a precisions.Only real differance IMHO was back pressure.The cooling efficiency down the track stayed about the same .however the precision went 3 more psi at the same setting the 3" pipes VS the 2.5 of the Eastern.My car has went a best of 10.35 and I would think the cotton is the best one on the market .if you are not running that much air through the motor then why does it matter.if you are running in the 8s and low to mid 9s i would go with cottons for sure.if you are thinking of upgrading an existing mid 10 second car to cottons over a precision Id save my money.hope this helps .You need the air pump to fill it up...... bigger is not always better.Also remember the bigger the IC the more Static pressure the turbo needs to overcome
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PS shows outstanding performance....
Our data shows big difference in PTE, Cotton's and the PS.
In one case we replaced the PTE with a PS and everything else was the same. Boost increased 4 psi which indicates less restriction in the PS.
Temps in the plenum with the PS have been much less than PTE and slightly less than Cotton's on the same day/track.
We will be doing further testing with the above I/C's as well as others in the coming months.
As a side note, all the front mounts show better TRACK performance than any stock location unit so far! The stock location units are good [comparable] for the 1/8th mile, but temps increase higher over the last 1/8th.
Our data shows big difference in PTE, Cotton's and the PS.
In one case we replaced the PTE with a PS and everything else was the same. Boost increased 4 psi which indicates less restriction in the PS.
Temps in the plenum with the PS have been much less than PTE and slightly less than Cotton's on the same day/track.
We will be doing further testing with the above I/C's as well as others in the coming months.
As a side note, all the front mounts show better TRACK performance than any stock location unit so far! The stock location units are good [comparable] for the 1/8th mile, but temps increase higher over the last 1/8th.
strikeeagle
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Nick,
When you say a kit for the PS, exactly what do you mean?
It's been my impression that the PS cooler is cheap in and of itself, but that it's tough to fit, and some hacking is needed. I'm not much for hacking - I want a cooler that fits with no hacking.
What do you know?
Thanks.
When you say a kit for the PS, exactly what do you mean?
It's been my impression that the PS cooler is cheap in and of itself, but that it's tough to fit, and some hacking is needed. I'm not much for hacking - I want a cooler that fits with no hacking.
What do you know?
Thanks.
Nick, at what boost levels was your test taken at?
I am also curious about radiator coolant temps with front mounts, does anyone have any temp comparisons between the Cotton and the Powerstroke? For those of us in the deep south, this is of primary concern for a street car. I know that Jack's has been in the 8's. How fast has anyone gone with the Powerstroke?
Does anyone have any inlet air temp comparisons? The Cotton front mount speaks for itself, well engineered and high quality,
but for those on a strict budget or in this case a second car, I am curious about the Powerstroke for my own use.
I am also curious about radiator coolant temps with front mounts, does anyone have any temp comparisons between the Cotton and the Powerstroke? For those of us in the deep south, this is of primary concern for a street car. I know that Jack's has been in the 8's. How fast has anyone gone with the Powerstroke?
Does anyone have any inlet air temp comparisons? The Cotton front mount speaks for itself, well engineered and high quality,
but for those on a strict budget or in this case a second car, I am curious about the Powerstroke for my own use.
I've run, with a stock I/C, big neck I/C, no I/C (with and without alky injection), a Cotton's F/M.
While non I/C'd, was alightly more responsive, it took more Accleration Enrichment to get that. *Lag* is a some what missed used word. Some people ignore the fact that they only have a 231 CID, to get the car moving. Once the r's are up, then boost is just an instant away, **IF** the calibration is correct. It takes tuning to get the accleration part of the calibration right, and alot of guys just give up, when they get close. Or go to a higher stall converter, to just get around having to spend the time to get the calibration correct.
Tuned correctly, there's no downside *lag* wise in my testing with a 3" Cotton's.
If your going to run a front mount, then IMO, run one with as much frontal area as possible, so once the car's speed get high enough, it will word to really cool the intake charge temp.. From about 60 MPH, I always maintain (in really hot weather) or drop plenum temps with the Cotton's.
As far as radiator temps.
The common thought is that a cooler coolant temp the better. Well for a stock set-up that might be true, since the actual plenum temps are so out of control. Once you go to a good Front Mount, detonation is much less of a concern since, the charge temperature is so much lower. And if the cal is correct then you don't have to *bandaid* the cal for fuel by running colder engine temps.. While I was running a fan *On* temp of 185dF with no I/C, I'm now running an *On* temp of 198dF. I'm also running 4d more timing and so far haven't even tickled the Knock Sensor.
With the old one out, and using a hoist, I had the Cotton's installed in less then a 3/4 hour. All it takes is drilling one 3/8" hole.
IMO, the answer is Cotton's. The PS for one, wouldn't even fit in my car, since my radiator's wider then the stocker. Not to mention that once I held one up to the car, I just didn't want to cut up that much of the car, and have to mess with the headlight buckets.
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Your comments are exactally what drove me to the PS in the first place, relatively inexpensive and NO hacking.
What we have done is cut the outlets of the PS and re-weld them so as not to cut up the core support and inner fenders. For the race cars, and some street cars, relocating the battery was not an issue, as that is where we ran the turbo pipe. It was necessary to "dress" the fiberglass headlight buckets to fit the PS.
Being very impressed with the performance of the PS, we found a company to make a very similar unit with minor changes. This will allow the I/C to fit like a PS, but not require mods to the car. It appears they can do 2 versions, one with center outlets like the PS, another with outlets under the core support like most FM units.
As for a "kit", this is still in the planning stages. For owners with ability to do minor fabrication, we could just supply the intercoler with instructions of how to fab pipes. This would make the price very affordable as pipes and hoses become pricey. We did the prototype set in just a couple hours with purchased bends and pipe.
Hope to have the prototype in about a week for fit and testing.
Re: PS shows outstanding performance....
I'm sure happy to see you post this, Nick. Woody and I have gone round and round a few times over the years on this issue - every car I've been involved with picked up at least .5 sec and 5 mph in the 1/4 going from a stock or big neck stock intercooler to a front mount, while Woody's observations were "no improvement". Guessing a little here based on your comment, but I never realized he was talking about 1/8 mile results.
I'm sure happy to see you post this, Nick. Woody and I have gone round and round a few times over the years on this issue - every car I've been involved with picked up at least .5 sec and 5 mph in the 1/4 going from a stock or big neck stock intercooler to a front mount, while Woody's observations were "no improvement". Guessing a little here based on your comment, but I never realized he was talking about 1/8 mile results.
J
JCotton
Guest
Nick,
Can you give us a little more in detail info on these tests, when they were done, what the performance gains or losses were, (ET, MPH) what size turbos, engine and recipe combo, etc....... Also, can you tell us what the core you will be using is rated at for HP and whether it is bar and plate or tube and fin?
thanks
Can you give us a little more in detail info on these tests, when they were done, what the performance gains or losses were, (ET, MPH) what size turbos, engine and recipe combo, etc....... Also, can you tell us what the core you will be using is rated at for HP and whether it is bar and plate or tube and fin?
thanks
PHP:
Our data shows big difference in PTE, Cotton's and the PS.
In one case we replaced the PTE with a PS and everything else was the same. Boost increased 4 psi which indicates less restriction in the PS.
Temps in the plenum with the PS have been much less than PTE and slightly less than Cotton's on the same day/track.
Our data shows big difference in PTE, Cotton's and the PS.Re: PS shows outstanding performance....
The way I understand it is if the restriction is reduced the core generally doesnt cool as well. I always thought there was a trade off in restriction verses cooling. In the above this seems to be not the case.
What am I missing?
The way I understand it is if the restriction is reduced the core generally doesnt cool as well. I always thought there was a trade off in restriction verses cooling. In the above this seems to be not the case.
What am I missing?
Re: Re: PS shows outstanding performance....
It'a a matter of temp. drop, as a function of restriction.
You have to use both terms to compare heat exchangers.
If it was just a matter of restriction then a straight pipe with no cooling would quality as a good intercooler, since it offered no restricition. And by the same token a really large Kenworth'd sized Intercooler that just used *cooling tubes* of .030" diameter would have alot of cooling, but also alot of restriction. The *tubes* have to offer a compromise of cross sectional area, to surface area for heat radiation.
It'a a matter of temp. drop, as a function of restriction.
You have to use both terms to compare heat exchangers.
If it was just a matter of restriction then a straight pipe with no cooling would quality as a good intercooler, since it offered no restricition. And by the same token a really large Kenworth'd sized Intercooler that just used *cooling tubes* of .030" diameter would have alot of cooling, but also alot of restriction. The *tubes* have to offer a compromise of cross sectional area, to surface area for heat radiation.
As Carl mentioned, I have long been an advocate of an efficient stock location vs a front mount........we did do back to back testing on a low 11 sec car and found no difference (V2 vs V4) in the 1/4 mile
that said, there is no doubt a front mount will help a bit and more so at higher performance levels.....Nick (& I) are not talking about low 11 sec cars today....more like low 10 sec cars
at that level, the downsides of a front mount (higher water temps) become very much diminshed, if not meaningless
I currently have a V2 on my car, but to be honest I doubt it is all that big a deal vs something like a V4 (my car is a mid 10 sec car now) the thing is, with FAST, we now pay attention to the MAT because it is right in front of our nose...in my case, I made too many changes to know if the IC added much (Alum heads, bigger turbo, FAST) I tend to suspect I could put a V4 back on and run the same....may have to take a turn on the boost to do so, but so what?
I still believe for anything slower than a high ten second car, money could be better spent elsewhere (especially if you live where it gets hot....)
bering in mind, we are talking about race conditions where there is no heat soak........on either type of IC
BTW, Nick & I have tried to compare MAT on the V2 and Powerstroke, and haven't really reached any conclusions.....dunno if we really can because of differences in our combos.....but we'll keep tryin' to come up with something useful
that said, there is no doubt a front mount will help a bit and more so at higher performance levels.....Nick (& I) are not talking about low 11 sec cars today....more like low 10 sec cars
at that level, the downsides of a front mount (higher water temps) become very much diminshed, if not meaningless
I currently have a V2 on my car, but to be honest I doubt it is all that big a deal vs something like a V4 (my car is a mid 10 sec car now) the thing is, with FAST, we now pay attention to the MAT because it is right in front of our nose...in my case, I made too many changes to know if the IC added much (Alum heads, bigger turbo, FAST) I tend to suspect I could put a V4 back on and run the same....may have to take a turn on the boost to do so, but so what?
I still believe for anything slower than a high ten second car, money could be better spent elsewhere (especially if you live where it gets hot....)
bering in mind, we are talking about race conditions where there is no heat soak........on either type of IC
BTW, Nick & I have tried to compare MAT on the V2 and Powerstroke, and haven't really reached any conclusions.....dunno if we really can because of differences in our combos.....but we'll keep tryin' to come up with something useful
Good question.
In googling for the info., it was amazing some of the claims made, by some folks, change air cleaners, and pick up 50 Ft/lbs, and 104 HP. Interesting claim.
I found these two *claims.
Kind of apples and oranges, but I don't see where adding his I/C was really worth it, for a gas engine.
Oddly enough, things just come in packages so you can only see the differences a whole package makes.
In one claim they mention an 18% decrease in restriction, and a 30% increase in heat disappation. If there's only a 2 PSI drop with the oem one, that means you might see .4 PSI reduction.
While in truck useage, where your at low speeds for prolonged amounts of time, then yes an intercooler that's more effective at lower boost, and lower airflows would be a marked improvement.
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FWIW, IMO, YMMV.
Mease Performance
Performance Fabrication/Supporting Vendor
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SWEET, front mounts being tested!!!!!
Hey jack, any way I could possibly get that front mount intercooler core back we sent to you guys about 1-2 years ago? We will be needing it back for some testing
I've mentioned it to you 3-4 times in the past year or so....I guess it just slipped your mind, no big deal. Send me an Email and I will give you our address again, thanks!
Keith
Hey jack, any way I could possibly get that front mount intercooler core back we sent to you guys about 1-2 years ago? We will be needing it back for some testing
I've mentioned it to you 3-4 times in the past year or so....I guess it just slipped your mind, no big deal. Send me an Email and I will give you our address again, thanks!Keith
J
JCotton
Guest
Sure Keith, I'll just cut those custom end tanks we made up off and send it out this week. You'll have to send me your address to send it to. I don't think the addresses I have are the correct ones. 
