Line hone question...

[Squid4life]

Have been reading searched threads for a few hours now and have not found a difinitive answer. (and my eyes are starting to cross... )

1. When a machine shop installs billet center main caps, should the heads be bolted on? (similar to "loading" the engine with a torque plate while honing)

2. Bonus question: Anyone ever hear of someone using a torque plate to bore the cylinder, not just hone?

 

[413turbo]

this is just from research....

find jack merkel 's engine site. he's got info there about it , and swears the heads need to be on. that the plate will not stress the block properly.

my shop said he couldn't do it with heads on because it wouldn't fit in v-blocks, and i think merkel uses a portable setup to do it.

i haven't had the money to even waste any of the other "known" builders time. i think jim ruggles said they need to be on also.

hope that helps a little.

 

[charlief1]

Yes the heads need to be on to hone/bore the mains and yes, 1 head and the torque plate to bore/hone the block. They have a lot of flex in them and this helps stress them so everything works better. Years ago I had mine done at Rhere and Morrison because they were the only one that knew what they were doing around here. They did the Indy motors so they did mine.

 

[Squid4life]

1 head and the torque plate to bore/hone the block.

Now that is a first heard for me... I knew about the torque plate, I even own one. But I have never heard of a head on one side, plate on the other, then flip flop. Aren't you supposed to use whatever clamping hardware (bolts or studs) along with headhaskets as well?

I imagine having a hard time getting a machine shop to do all the extra labor involved in this... Need to search in SoCal area.... I know of a few in Kansas, none here in SoCal. :redface:

 

[thadeal4real]

lots of good shops in so-cal

chevys bolt on a pump boss to line hone -this is a good question to ask to find a good shop good thing buicks oil in the front :biggrin: lol only good shops do extra work not just for extra charge the *extra* is not always needed but always appreciated good luck
ps theres only 1 way to do something -thats the right way

 

[gnxtc2]

Yes, the heads should installed on the block for the line hone. The engine builders that say no is because they don't have the proper equipment to have it done.

I never heard of install one head and one torque plate for boring/honing. I've heard of using two torque plates. IMHO, using a torque plate to bore a block is kinda useless. When you bore the block, one usually bores it to within .005" of the final size.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Squid4life]

Yes, the heads should installed on the block for the line hone. The engine builders that say no is because they don't have the proper equipment to have it done.

I never heard of install one head and one torque plate for boring/honing. I've heard of using two torque plates. IMHO, using a torque plate to bore a block is kinda useless. When you bore the block, one usually bores it to within .005" of the final size.

Hmmm... I have only seen them use one torque plate while honing... I only bought one! :biggrin:

 

[gnxtc2]

Hmmm... I have only seen them use one torque plate while honing... I only bought one! :biggrin:

Yea, that's the norm. Some engine builders like to install 2 torque plates because they won't have to stop and transfer the plate to the other side. They install 2 plates and hone away.

On a side note; BHJ makes torque plates in steel and aluminum for obvious reasons.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Squid4life]

Yea, that's the norm. Some engine builders like to install 2 torque plates because they won't have to stop and transfer the plate to the other side. They install 2 plates and hone away.

On a side note; BHJ makes torque plates in steel and aluminum for obvious reasons.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

Makes sense, I guess the guys I have used were too cheap. They only bought one. I can't see it making a difference too much if say the passenger side was being honed with a plate, but there was nothing on the opposite side. Do you?

I have a steel BHJ.

From earlier:
Aren't you also supposed to use whatever clamping hardware (bolts or studs) along with head gaskets as well?

 

[charlief1]

Yes, the heads should installed on the block for the line hone. The engine builders that say no is because they don't have the proper equipment to have it done.

I never heard of install one head and one torque plate for boring/honing. I've heard of using two torque plates. IMHO, using a torque plate to bore a block is kinda useless. When you bore the block, one usually bores it to within .005" of the final size.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

You're right about using 2 torque plates Billy, but most shops don't have 2 so by using 1 head and the torque plate you still get the same stresses and you can do one side at a time. Slower,yes, but you get better results this way.

Makes sense, I guess the guys I have used were too cheap. They only bought one. I can't see it making a difference too much if say the passenger side was being honed with a plate, but there was nothing on the opposite side. Do you?

I have a steel BHJ.

From earlier:
Aren't you also supposed to use whatever clamping hardware (bolts or studs) along with head gaskets as well?

Yes you're supposed to use the exact same hardware you plan on using to assemble the block. If you only have 1 side torqued and the other not torqued the distortion will change when you stress the block the other way, so 2 is best but if you don't have 2, 1 head and 1 torque needs to be used. More expensive and a pain to set up though.

 

[bison]

I doubt GM went through these pains to prep a block for the line bore. With perfectly round cylinders you may drop leak down a couple % which will not show up as any measurable difference in power. Now if you are planning on making 700+hp it might be worth it if you have a good block to cut down on blow by. The stock block cylinders will be moving all over the place under power at those levels though so it wont matter if they were round on assembly. Just my opinion.

 

[Squid4life]

I doubt GM went through these pains to prep a block for the line bore. With perfectly round cylinders you may drop leak down a couple % which will not show up as any measurable difference in power. Now if you are planning on making 700+hp it might be worth it if you have a good block to cut down on blow by. The stock block cylinders will be moving all over the place under power at those levels though so it wont matter if they were round on assembly. Just my opinion.

So if someone was shooting for 10's or maybe high 9's with the wick turned up, you think they'd be fine with heads bolted on for LINE HONE, and one torque plate on for that side during normal hone?

 

[Pablo]

I doubt GM went through these pains to prep a block for the line bore. With perfectly round cylinders you may drop leak down a couple % which will not show up as any measurable difference in power. Now if you are planning on making 700+hp it might be worth it if you have a good block to cut down on blow by. The stock block cylinders will be moving all over the place under power at those levels though so it wont matter if they were round on assembly. Just my opinion.

I agree

Furthermore, I have yet to see anyone post any actual data concerning cyl. distortion (or any other distortion) with or without using a torque plate or torqued mains etc.

So far no one has posted even one shred of evidence about the extent of block deformation because of torqued fasteners. I have no problem accepting it as a fact if someone has some numbers. As of now only one person claims to have actually measured and found insignificant cylinder distortion.

 

[Squid4life]

I agree

Furthermore, I have yet to see anyone post any actual data concerning cyl. distortion (or any other distortion) with or without using a torque plate or torqued mains etc.

So far no one has posted even one shred of evidence about the extent of block deformation because of torqued fasteners. I have no problem accepting it as a fact if someone has some numbers. As of now only one person claims to have actually measured and found insignificant cylinder distortion.

Well, I do have a spare 109, a torque plate, spare head bolts (stockers), spare used head gaskets, and a dial bore guage... Now if I only had time to spare I could mic the cylinders on top, middle, bottom, and document it. Then put on the plate and take measurements.

That should settle it, or at least give us some more info.

 

[Pablo]

Well, I do have a spare 109, a torque plate, spare head bolts (stockers), spare used head gaskets, and a dial bore guage... Now if I only had time to spare I could mic the cylinders on top, middle, bottom, and document it. Then put on the plate and take measurements.

That should settle it, or at least give us some more info.

I have been meaning to do the same thing except I was going to go from the bottom and use a cylinder head instead of a torque plate. It would be interesting to see the difference between a torque plate and a head though but that would be three rounds of measurements.

 

[charlief1]

Well, I do have a spare 109, a torque plate, spare head bolts (stockers), spare used head gaskets, and a dial bore guage... Now if I only had time to spare I could mic the cylinders on top, middle, bottom, and document it. Then put on the plate and take measurements.

That should settle it, or at least give us some more info.

That would be great for sure. 1 other idea is to measure the mains or mark them in some way to see if they shift before you put the plate on as well.

 

[BEATAV8]

subscribing..
I've never heard of anyone line honing the mains with cylinder heads bolted on.

 

[gnxtc2]

Well, I do have a spare 109, a torque plate, spare head bolts (stockers), spare used head gaskets, and a dial bore guage... Now if I only had time to spare I could mic the cylinders on top, middle, bottom, and document it. Then put on the plate and take measurements.

That should settle it, or at least give us some more info.

I bet you will see distortion Even more with a girdle.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[gnxtc2]

I doubt GM went through these pains to prep a block for the line bore. With perfectly round cylinders you may drop leak down a couple % which will not show up as any measurable difference in power. Now if you are planning on making 700+hp it might be worth it if you have a good block to cut down on blow by. The stock block cylinders will be moving all over the place under power at those levels though so it wont matter if they were round on assembly. Just my opinion.

I agree to a point.

Got to remember, when GM put together these motors, they never thought of the mods we are doing to them today. We are 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x and 6x (maybe) the stock power of the original motor.

Ever take apart a stock, unopened motor that was heavily modified? You'll see the shape the cylinders/pistons are in. If the motors are left stock, then probably you can get away from all the extra honing/bore steps. You start adding HP, then everything starts to move.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[thadeal4real]

distortion?

cylinder wall should only be within 0.0005" and the mains on the v6 buick i doubt you could even measure would be like +/- 0.0002"mabey?how about that 0.0025" oil clearance or the fact that within the first min of fire up/break in you take almost 0.001" off the walls just a thought:wink: