Magic HP #

[Alky V6]

Thanks a lot....very good summary of info. I'm not into wasting people's time so I won't be contacting Ken any day soon but he is on a very short list of people I've found who have built some killer Buick V6's and he actually built the motor in the car that currently holds the records at Bonneville of 256 in a TTA driven by John Raines. But anyway thanks for the info and I have started looking for Stage II blocks...other than here or a couple of the other Buick boards, is their anywhere else you might find one? I found one on ebay but it had some damage to the block so I've opted to stay away....do you ever see them on something like racingjunk.com?

Thanks again...this already looks like a good group of people

I was at Bonneville one year and got a chance to see John's car there. It is actually illegal for the record he holds. The rules state production heads. His are stage II. No question. I don't think stage II heads were ever on a production car. If you tried to go after his record with stage II heads, he might easily complain about your heads in tech and get you disqualified. Not sure if he would actually do that, but I just wanted to give you a heads up before you invested the time and money. It could be a gamble at tech.

 

[Alky V6]

I have a few pairs of stage II heads. One pair, I believe are Indy heads. I was curious and had a set of the Chapman ported stage II heads flow tested along with the Indy heads. The flow differences were not that drastic. I wouldn't think it absolutely necessary that you use a pair of Indy heads. I can look up the numbers if anyone is curious.

 

[200MPHClub]

I would be most interested and if it isn't too much trouble would greatly appreciate it...as we all know the Stage II heads are much easier (although that is relative) to find compared to Indy heads.

On the motor question in John's car, I'm fairly certain it's a complete stage II motor with a massive turbo, might even be the TA block...not sure. As I said in another post I'm waiting for the official rule book so I know what is and isn't allowed in "Production" because clearly none of the cars that running in that class are anywhere near production vehicles. Just need to see what we can get away with...and then stretch that a bit

Thanks for the insight though.

 

[Alky V6]

I've seen the rule book. Definitely not legal. Good luck though.

I'll get those flow numbers for you.

 

[Alky V6]

I stand corrected. The flow numbers on the Indy heads are quite a bit better. Numbers coming.

 

[Alky V6]

Flow numbers for Chapman ported StgII

Intake
.1 68
.2 127.6
.3 185.6
.4 241
.5 281
.6 304.3
.7 308.7
.75 308.7

Exhaust
.1 53
.2 96
.3 132.2
.4 184
.5 223
.6 236.3
.7 241
.75 241

 

[Blazer406]

Dang Donnie....

Those heads rock! They should make some serious HP....

 

[LV GN]

we have a small ci short stroke stage motor for sale at ken's shop right now. i can arrainge for info from kenny if you would like to know more.

 

[Alky V6]

Flow numbers for Indy StgII. Ported?

Intake
.1 68
.2 124.4
.3 181.4
.4 235.3
.5 286.1
.6 312.4
.65 328
.7 333

Exhaust
.1 53
.2 97
.3 143.3
.4 202.8
.5 224.6
.6 231.3
.7 234
.75 234

 

[Alky V6]

I'm trying to decide which of the 2 sets to use on my next project.

 

[Alky V6]

If I recall correctly from the sims I did with the heads, the Indy heads will only be an advantage it you're planning on running 9,000 to 9,500 rpm.

 

[Blazer406]

I would tend to agree... if you were naturally aspirated.... however.... if you can get enough spoolup at the line... to get the 60's where they need to be... IMHO they will be a great choice..... and make more power at less boost.... with complementing parts. I wouldn't be scared at all to use them in a 30 psi plus boosted small ci motor...

 

[200MPHClub]

Don, if you look to sell the Indy Heads let me know...as 60 foot times are the least of my worries....however 8000rpm is exactly where I would like to be with 30-40 psi of boost flowing through them.

 

[200MPHClub]

we have a small ci short stroke stage motor for sale at ken's shop right now. i can arrainge for info from kenny if you would like to know more.

I would....keep in mind this isn't a drag application but for time trialing, so it needs to be able to run at or near redline for several minutes and then be able to back that pass up again within a couple of hours or so. Also, according to my fuzzy math it needs to support somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500hp. Let me know.

 

[Alky V6]

The intake port velocity is all wrong at anything less than 9000 rpm with the Indy heads. And this is with a large ci engine. With a small engine, you'd better be using valve train components that haven't been invented yet, because you'd have to buzz the holy c p out of it to get any real advantage from pulse tuning. And please don't try to tell me pulse tuning doesn't happen with a turbocharged engine. Plus, fuel atomization (especially methanol) could be a real problem with port velocities being too slow.

The sims I did were with turbocharging, of course. I did manage to come up with a configuration that is pretty unbelievable with the regular stage II heads. I'd have to go over all the data again, it's been awhile, but I believe the regular stage II heads would be my heads of choice. Now if I were planning on buzzing a large ci engine to 9500 rpm, I might reconsider. Especially with methanol.

If you were burning methanol that was largely in a vaporized state by the time it hit the intake port, then I could start to see an advantage with the Indy head. Since the methanol in vaporized form takes up a lot of space volume.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, if you look to sell the Indy Heads let me know...as 60 foot times are the least of my worries....however 8000rpm is exactly where I would like to be with 30-40 psi of boost flowing through them.

That sounds like a very sane configuration. But, I really don't think you need to wait for a pair of Indy heads for that planned redline. The intake port velocities would be more on target with the regular stage II heads.

 

[Blazer406]

I have no real basis for my "theories" except what I believe from the hot rodding knowledge combined with a Mechanical Engineering degree..... so all of my "intuition" is just that... sorry if I disappoint...


Why is velocity that important in a turbocharged drag racing engine? In a N/A setup....you loose low speed torque..... but in a turbocharged engine.... it might slow spoolup a little... but if you can get it up on boost (10-15 lbs)before the car leaves (and I am realizing that I have deviated off topic).... the engine is going to make enough torque to really get the car moving... and from that point... you are building boost rapidly.... if it doesn't build boost rapidly enough... you hit it with a momentary shot of nitrous.... to decrease spoolup time.... at least until it gets to a certain boost level.

The fact that you have removed the restriction at the heads... and stuffed more air in the cylinder.... as long as you can still get it to preform well enough (for launch boost and spoolup) to keep the 60' times low.... it is doing nothing but getting better from that point forward during the run.....

 

[200MPHClub]

That sounds like a very sane configuration. But, I really don't think you need to wait for a pair of Indy heads for that planned redline. The intake port velocities would be more on target with the regular stage II heads.

Well thanks for the input...being new to Buicks and Turbos I'm going to defer to those much more knowledgeable than I. Now with that said, 8000 RPM is just a number...if I can hold the torque curve and continue to produce HP higher in the RPM band than I am fine with that. Remember nothing here has been built yet so rearend gearing is also still up to debate so if I need to run a taller gear to take advantage of a higher RPM range that's OK by me as well. Only if it makes sense of course. I had a calculator bookmarked (though can't find it now) that would calculate the weight of the car, the aerodynamics, rearend gearing and then spit out a HP# at a given RPM....then you could slide the HP/RPM/Gearing around to play with the choices. Gotta find it again and see what 9000 RPM would do for me (better or worse) and see if it makes sense.

Again thanks for the input.

BTW, who ported those Champion Heads? Seems like very good flow numbers out of them.

 

[Alky V6]

Blazer406. I'm sorry if the tone of my writing appears harsh or critical towards you. That is the furthest from my intention. I am only trying to inform. That's all. Period. Again. I'm sorry if you've taken any offense to my writing.

OK. That being said. Why is some LEVEL of port velocity important. It has some to do with proper atomization and handling of the fuel for one thing. In a low velocity port, fuel has more of a tendency to fall out of suspension. With methanol, that can actually cause a lean condition, even with relatively rich mixtures.

More importantly, it has to do with pulse wave tuning for added fill and scavenging of the cylinder within target rpm ranges. All, and I repeat, ALL aspects of the engine should be properly configured and matched to properly take advantage of this type of tuning. Simply hogging out a port to the largest possible size is not the real answer. What you want to do is match the flow capacity of the head to the intended use of the engine so that proper pulse wave tuning can be achieved, as long as all the other tuning aspects of the engine are also in line for the same target purpose.

One good example of a port being too large. The Boss 302 exhaust port. Many tuners have come to the conclusion that the exhaust port flows too much, causing a loss in HP. The port is causing an imbalance during the scavenging phase of the cylinder. The exhaust system pulse wave is not timed properly because of the lack of restriction and velocity.

Keep in mind that velocity and charge momentum go hand in hand.

Pulse wave tuning. Free horsepower.

Some would argue that pulse wave tuning doesn't occur in the high pressures of a turbocharged engine. They do. Just at higher pressure thresholds.

You really don't think pulses occur at high pressures? Lets look at an electronic fuel system. Why are pulsator devices put into the fuel system to control the pulses that occur in a fuel rail from the firing of each injector? Noise for one. Keep in mind that these pulses can affect the flow volume of the next injector firing depending on whether the pulse is at a high amplitude or low amplitude at that injector. So the flow could be up or down depending on the state of the pulse in the fuel rail at that particular injector. Same thing happens in an intake manifold. Air being a much more elastic medium at any pressure than fuel, one would have to agree that it's happening in the intake with every closing and opening of an intake or exhaust valve. The intake manifold is filled with a crazy mess of pressure pulsing. When a pulse can be timed to be at high amplitude just as an intake valve is closing, you get an added boost to the fill of the cylinder. ON TOP of the boost pressure that's already present because of the turbocharger. Carefully obtaining the proper port velocity (momentum of the air/fuel charge) will help to optimize this added boost to the cylinder charge.

There is a limit though. When you start going past a certain intake port velocity, the added restriction to flow starts to become counter productive. The secret is finding that majical port velocity number.

Ever wonder why you see such a large selection of intake port volumes of heads for popular racing engines? It's so the engine builder can properly match a set of heads to the intended use of the engine so that proper intake velocities and pulse tuning can be maximized.

 

[Alky V6]

Well thanks for the input...being new to Buicks and Turbos I'm going to defer to those much more knowledgeable than I. Now with that said, 8000 RPM is just a number...if I can hold the torque curve and continue to produce HP higher in the RPM band than I am fine with that. Remember nothing here has been built yet so rearend gearing is also still up to debate so if I need to run a taller gear to take advantage of a higher RPM range that's OK by me as well. Only if it makes sense of course. I had a calculator bookmarked (though can't find it now) that would calculate the weight of the car, the aerodynamics, rearend gearing and then spit out a HP# at a given RPM....then you could slide the HP/RPM/Gearing around to play with the choices. Gotta find it again and see what 9000 RPM would do for me (better or worse) and see if it makes sense.

Again thanks for the input.

BTW, who ported those Champion Heads? Seems like very good flow numbers out of them.

I would have to check the box, but I think they were ported by Chapman. Not Champion.