Need advice on picking a combo

[Joe 1320]

I listed my current parts in my sig.... what turbo/injectors and converter will give this STREET car perhaps a 9.90 on slicks and 10s on radials? Thanks guys for any suggestions. Keep in mind I want to be able to drive this thing on cruises to basically anywhere without fear. Until the last motor let go, I could clock mid to high 11s, that isn't going to cut it anymore.


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86GN-X clone,309G billet roller,ported irons,port matched intake,JE pistons, RJC girdle, billet mains, arp studs, poston's ceramic headers,ceramic crossover,3"ported elbow,Kirban 3" DP,KB 3" single shot, twin Stainless ultraflows,Red Stripes,ATR 7th,BGC pump,Hotwire,Voltbooster,TB heat bypass,Joe Lubrant 93 & 110 chips,scanmaster,KB ram air,K&N,D5,level 10, as many wheel and tire combos as women have shoes

Thanks guys far any thoughts.....

 

[Louie L.]

Joe,
Thats a tall order to fill! A min of a 70 turbo with 72# injectors is my opinion. Although ive heard of 10 sec TRs on DRs youd have to be on ball with tune and suspension. The same for a 9.9- ET. It takes a whole lot of 60ft and HP to get there.Even though we are hearing more and more of 9 sec street car its still no easy task.

Im trying to do a similar thing , but im kinda preparing for a Stage 2 motor . So im going with a 74 turbo for now which should get low 10s with the girdled block and later work perfectly on the stroker.

 

[blackshoebox]

PT70 4 bolt turbo will support 830hp and is enough for mid 9's and will work well with a 3800-4000 stall converter and I'd say just to be on the safe side skip over the 72's and 75's and get some 83's. I would also plan on getting a ME 16 pos chip from Steve Yanklin or a SpeedPro system. I really don't think this will be much of a "street" car, but if you have a motor that will handle it and can get some killer 60's (you'll probably want a trans-brake) this combo should be enough for your goals. I think a good example of this combo is Roger Davis aka Nashty (his GN was featured in the July issue of GMHTP "Cruel Intentions") cause his GN ran 10.57 @129 with 23 psi and at BG it ran 10.25 @131 with 25 psi This is a girdled stock block with GN1's and basically the same combo I've mentioned. Now before I get flamed by a certain few let me just say I never said running these kind of times was easy or it was the norm and I didn't mention Orlando's name up until now, so don't start with the same BS you tried with Brick!!!

 

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by blackshoebox
PT70 4 bolt turbo will support 830hp and is enough for mid 9's and will work well with a 3800-4000 stall converter and I'd say just to be on the safe side skip over the 72's and 75's and get some 83's. I would also plan on getting a ME 16 pos chip from Steve Yanklin or a SpeedPro system. I really don't think this will be much of a "street" car, but if you have a motor that will handle it and can get some killer 60's (you'll probably want a trans-brake) this combo should be enough for your goals. I think a good example of this combo is Roger Davis aka Nashty (his GN was featured in the July issue of GMHTP "Cruel Intentions") cause his GN ran 10.57 @129 with 23 psi and at BG it ran 10.25 @131 with 25 psi This is a girdled stock block with GN1's and basically the same combo I've mentioned. Now before I get flamed by a certain few let me just say I never said running these kind of times was easy or it was the norm and I didn't mention Orlando's name up until now, so don't start with the same BS you tried with Brick!!!

Wouldn't think of it Nice new name in the mix! I just got back from Cecil test and tune and the Fullis laid down a 10.36@136 with the Stage 2/ PT-88/ 400 turbo setup on DR's Give you an idea?

 

[azgn]

although it can be done with a stock block (particularly if you live in Fla), with goals like that, you would be better off in the long run building a Stage motor.....would be much more reliable and ultimately cheaper ( if 9.9's are your goal today, could 8's be that far away??)

a stock block will be maxxed & stressed.....there will be room to grow with a stage motor

 

[86brick]

Alex, thanks for giving them the heads up that bashing me for mentioning Orlando and Orlando for not being on the internet is getting old, and it just shows them to be childish and a bit jealous of his accomplishments IMO, but never the less I'm always wrong I think most everybody knows that a Stage motor is a better choice for running deep in the 10's and 9's, however, I also think most can't afford the $15k to $20k price range for a Stage motor and if they would like to build it some time while they're still living the stock block is about the only route to go. The TA Performance aluminum block motor won't be any cheaper, so I think Joe's plan of a stock block girdled motor isn't that bad of an idea. I'm sure he knows the risks involved with making that kind of power on a stock block, so I say give it a try if you don't have the funds to go Stage. Running 10's isn't cheap either way, so if you got the $$$ or if you plan on running deep in the 10's and 9's on a regular basis go with a Stage motor or wait for the new TA block.

 

[Joe 1320]

I suppose I should clarify what my intent is..... I want to build a sucker motor. The kind that when you open the hood, it looks basically stock. I plan on keeping it at really low boost levels and only turn up the boost enough to shut down a smack talker. You know...... run 10psi and clock 12.50s. Someone starts challenging so you turn up the wick and turn 11.90s. Someone else with a mid 11 car challenges so you turn up the wick a little more and run low 11s...... I do ultimately want a 9.9X at maxumim effort, even if it only sees that .01% of the time. I NEED it to live a somewhat long life at mid 10s and it wouldn't see that too often. I can have alot of fun racing a conservative 10.90 When that motor breaks, then I'll look into a stage motor.

 

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by 86brick
Alex, thanks for giving them the heads up that bashing me for mentioning Orlando and Orlando for not being on the internet is getting old, and it just shows them to be childish and a bit jealous of his accomplishments IMO, but never the less I'm always wrong I think most everybody knows that a Stage motor is a better choice for running deep in the 10's and 9's, however, I also think most can't afford the $15k to $20k price range for a Stage motor and if they would like to build it some time while they're still living the stock block is about the only route to go. The TA Performance aluminum block motor won't be any cheaper, so I think Joe's plan of a stock block girdled motor isn't that bad of an idea. I'm sure he knows the risks involved with making that kind of power on a stock block, so I say give it a try if you don't have the funds to go Stage. Running 10's isn't cheap either way, so if you got the $$$ or if you plan on running deep in the 10's and 9's on a regular basis go with a Stage motor or wait for the new TA block.

Wrong Wrong......... Wrong! Don't think for one second I am jealous of Orlando because I gurantee I am not. It isn't what I want to do for one and I know my limitations for another. All it takes is money and some risks! Next is the TA block you speak of. Well it will be much simpler and more cost effective because you can use most of the stock production components on it, that is the way they designed it. I think others that "actually" have run these numbers can tell you, I and anyone else what it takes.

 

[86brick]

Intercooler, I had no idea you were running low 10's with a stock block with 40lbs of boost for over 4yrs now like you know who.......... enlighten me please!!! I'm a bit confused cause last time I heard you were still in the 11's (you couldn't get your car to 60' very well), but I could be wrong. As far as the TA block is conserned from what I've heard on this forum it won't be cheap. The block alone will be selling for 3000-$3500 which I sure don't consider cheap and I'm sure when you're all said and done it will cost about $15k to run deep in the 10's to high 9's with a TA motor (keep in mind I'm including the cost of a Felpro, new or rebuild turbo, new FMIC, heads, cam, fuel system, and all the other little stuff). I'm talking about starting fresh cause if you already have the parts like you or Joe might it's a different story and you are doing all the work (labor adds up real quick unless you're a mechanic and I sure as hell am not). Bottom line is when somebody builds a TA motor and is running high 9's we will find out how much it really costs cause I think it's a bit early to say how well this motor will last and what the cost to build one really is!

 

[TTA89]

Build a Stage 2... So in other words, Got around 20-30 Grand to do it right?

 

[azgn]

I don't care what block you use, to build a (reliable) 9 sec car costs $$$$$

all the "little" stuff is what adds up... (priced a FAST system recently? you can drop $3K faster than you can say WB 02 sensor!))......

would I pay an extra $3,000 for a block that will support 1200 hp? you bet! That would be the cheapest insurance you could get.......

 

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by 86brick
Intercooler, I had no idea you were running low 10's with a stock block with 40lbs of boost for over 4yrs now like you know who.......... enlighten me please!!! I'm a bit confused cause last time I heard you were still in the 11's (you couldn't get your car to 60' very well), but I could be wrong. As far as the TA block is conserned from what I've heard on this forum it won't be cheap. The block alone will be selling for 3000-$3500 which I sure don't consider cheap and I'm sure when you're all said and done it will cost about $15k to run deep in the 10's to high 9's with a TA motor (keep in mind I'm including the cost of a Felpro, new or rebuild turbo, new FMIC, heads, cam, fuel system, and all the other little stuff). I'm talking about starting fresh cause if you already have the parts like you or Joe might it's a different story and you are doing all the work (labor adds up real quick unless you're a mechanic and I sure as hell am not). Bottom line is when somebody builds a TA motor and is running high 9's we will find out how much it really costs cause I think it's a bit early to say how well this motor will last and what the cost to build one really is!

LOL! Exactly the reason I don't speak for others! I ran 11.5 on 19.5 with a street chip but had a setup capable of running the 10's. Things tend to break more when past 11.5 so get there first and give me some feedback. The way I see it is the TA block, steel crank and GN-1's. About $7k but you can bolt the rest of your stuff on and cram it in your car. It will hold the power then. You sure Orlando isn't sliding you a little on the side I mean sheeesh, I saw the Fullis run 10.36@136 today on DR's but don't harp on them and Bob Armstrong speaks for himself but I don't refer to him every chance I get. These guys have their accomplishments and I have mine. Still stuck on the 4 yrs. thing huh? I guess I could go 10 years or more on my motor if I ran it once a year and didn't drive it on the street. Don't worry about me, I have and always do all my own work except for the transmission so I am fine with taking my lumps with my accomplishments.

 

[86brick]

Well now you got me thinking about the TA block, so let me ask a few questions. When you say that you can use stock production components are we talking about the stock turbo crank, stock rods, and the stock iron heads? If so that will help keep the cost down a bit but, like Woody just mentioned the little things add up real quick. It seems like most guys running low 10's or faster are using the SpeedPro system which isn't cheap at all and from what I've read on this forum it's also pretty hard to get it tuned, so I'd probably try and do it with a chip like the ME or just try it with one of Red's chips cause I've been told there are some guys running in the 9's with the stock ECM and myself I think high 9's would be about as fast as I'd want to go. I will have to find out about the TA block and see how it works cause if you can build one to be reliable deep into the 9's and it's not that much more costly over building a stock block I would definately buy one when the time comes for a rebuild.

 

[azgn]

yep, the "incremental" cost is just the cost of the block...unlike a Stage block where you may have to spend $2K on the oiling system......all the parts you got WILL fit (you can even use 8 OR 14 bolt heads.....tapped for both and those taps do not go into a water jacket...)

sooooo, if ya wanna go real fast, it certainly has to be considered!

 

[86brick]

Intercooler, I just saw your post, and lately you seem to want to talk about him more than I do I wish we could just drop it and agree to disagree cause I'm trying to be civil, but you seem stuck on the topic. The bottom line is I think it's impressive what he's done on a stock block and the fact that it's lasted this long after being raced a LOT more than once a year and street driven to car shows and on a normal basis. If you disagree (and I'm sure you do) that's fine with me, but please stop with the BS about him sliding me a little on the side cause I see it has being very childish. BTW, I really couldn't give a damn if you harp on Fullis or Bob Armstrong cause it doesn't bother me to mention somebody elses accomplishments. You seem to like to harp on your accomplishments and I'm not down your throat every post talking about how your so full of yourself. I don't need to toot my own horn and I don't think when I mentioned Orlando I was tooting his horn cause NEVER did I say he was better than anybody else like Race Jace, Geno, or anybody else that's gone fast on a stock block. This is my last post discussing this endless and quite honestly boring topic with you cause this is the Tech section and I really would like to hear more about the TA block as I previously posted so any info you or anybody else has would be greatly appreciated by me! TIA

 

[86brick]

Thanks for the info Woody!

 

[Intercooler]

Brick,

Never said that any of the ones you mentioned were nothing short of great feats! Still it isn't like everyone will or should be doing these things. Without a doubt it has to be a progression or you will be out $$$ in the learning curve. To each there own. Myself I wouldn't push a stock block or rotating assembly past 10.50 even with caps and a girdle, ever! I also would get a turbo that will do the job with less than 40 PSI to get me there without working it to death. Same goes for IC and fuel system.

 

[86brick]

I agree.......

Intercooler, I understand exactly what your saying. The combo Orlando has is definately not the norm and IF I gave you or anybody else that impression I'm sorry. Like I mentioned in the other thread he built it on a budget, but it works very well for him from what I've been told. This does NOT mean it would work well for Tom, ****, or Harry cause he knows his car very well and it's a LOT of trial and error which honestly I wouldn't care to try. I do like the fact that he kept it simple using a Red Armstrong chip instead of a ME or SpeedPro cause they seem to be very complicated from what I've read on this forum. All I really want is a 10 second capable car with as little tuning needed as possible which I know won't be easy! It's good to know your limitations and I'm sure most of the guys like Geno, Race Jace, and Orlando do, but they choose to push the limits. I would much rather not push the limit myself if I didn't have to which makes the TA block very appealing. I'm just glad TA is making it cause from the sounds of it we'll be able to make more power on stock components without being on the edge

 

[Joe 1320]

Even at this point, I don't want to even THINK about the dough I have tied up in this. I have spread the cost out over time. I bought the car in 93 and have added the basic speed parts to go faster...... then broke the motor. Went up a notch on the motor, then added more go fast parts...... broke the trans. Went a notch up on the trans. Added more go fast parts and that lasted awhile...... really broke the motor good this time. There is no way I could have spent all that dough at one time, it would have been waayyyy worse if I didn't do most of the work myself. I couldn't do that with the trans though. I'm an idiot when it comes to the internals of the slushbox. At this point there is no way I can afford a stage motor, not unless I plan to have the car out of action for a long, long time. It seems that there is a collection of guys here that seem to be able to keep a stock block alive in the tens for a considerable amount of time. I just plan on following in their footsteps. If I have to put the car on a diet, so be it. It sure would be less of a strain on the drivetrain. Alot cheaper than adding more HP too.

 

[azgn]

the cheapest .1 you will ever gain is 100 lbs off the weight

I do think you need to re-examine your goals as stated...if you want to build a stout stock block, then so be it.....sounds to me like you have some experience with what can break on these cars.....if you don't want it to break, accept what is available and reasonable and go with it....BTW, a 9 sec timeslip is NOT a part of that equation...nor is a low 10 sec slip......unless you are willing to pay the price

700 hp from 231 cu in......think about it!!

( get the weight down to 2900 lbs and we can talk....)