Need help and advice....about a TT setup and a 4.1????

[nasty83regal]

k hers the deal i have a 83 buick regal with a 4.1 motor....supposedly all original engine and tranny....obivously a N/A motor....anyhow i was plannin a 455 bb swap when this guy emails and says hey i got a twin turbo setup for a carbed buick v6........of which hes in process of sending pics..........anyone else have a setup like this?????? all he has is the headers/manifolds and duct work for up to the carb..........he says the headers look not custom but not cheap either.....not sure exactly i guess but i asked if it was a custom setup and thats the answer i got till i get pics...........all he bought it for was the turbos for his street rod and didnt need the v6 stuff...........plus with me having the 4.1 it seams like im at a advantage from what im reading as far as the crank and larger displacement....but.....maybe im not what you guyz think????

thankx for any help on the tt subject or 4.1............

oh one last question i havent yanked out my 4.1 yet.......what tranny should be behind it? th350 or???? just curious

thankx
brooks

 

[turbosam6]

Your 4.1 block and likely your crank are weaker than the 3.8 turbo stuff. I've never heard of a tt kit for a carbed regal, but I would be leary of anyone who doesn't have one of these cars or some experience with them. In any case, to tt your car would require extensive work. Good luck.

 

[nasty83regal]

ummm im not trying to sound stupid...or rude by any means but as far as i can gather off the n/a info so far on this site and others is that most 3.8 owners are looking for a good 4.1 crank....plus the 4.1 and 3.8 are same block...so.............but i know the cranks are stronger then a 3.8..........interesting huh since the 3.8 has the turbo....wonder if they planned on using 4.1 for turbo instead or also.....hmmmmmmm..........

thankx anyhow though
brooks

 

[turbosam6]

Crank strength is determined by the rolled fillets, not block displacement. I would guess you do not have the rolled fillets, judging by the year and being a non turbo car. The 4.1 and 3.8 are different blocks, the literature I have read says the turbo 3.8 block is stronger than the 4.1 or 3.8 n/a blocks. I think most guys are looking for a replacement crank for their 3.8 turbo motors, not a 4.1 crank.

 

[nasty83regal]

hmmm now it sounds like we read 2 totally different things....let me grab the website and post it for you and see if this is where you read it...... heres one which mentions the fillet crank in the 4.1 http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/tnotes.htm look under "TURBO V6 and NAV6 PARTS INTERCHANGE" heres another website where it mentions this http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/cranks/crankguide.html about the crank......so with that out of way now onto the block....yes the internals such as rods and pistons arnt as strong but the block itself or unless ya have a stage block is same....from what ive read thus far in the past 2 weeks that i started on the buick v6's instead of 455's............now heres one mention and i'll point out the near top line of the 2nd paragrapgh........ "The Turbo and Normally Aspirated blocks (Casting number 25526109) appear to be identical except for the addition of the turbo oil drain back hole on the turbo version." now start here and read down and you'll see the only differences are superficial such as oil drain which can easily be installed into pan instead.......the only thing i can find different is in last 2 yrs of production the 86-87 blocks were stronger but i never said it was strongest....just a good base and just as strong as most....which in fact its sronger then earlky turbo's if you read more on some of these sites like having more ribs then earliers ones and such..............another thing i read and kind of liked for the 4.1 is just bore it out .035 i believe and you can use sbc pistons so there alot cheaper and more of them out there to choose from....and i believe it was a fairly easy to do.............plus the 4.1 has a 4 barrelle on it already from factory so.......and im not sure but i think i just uncovered that the rods in the 4.1 are also the same "2 dot" as the turbo rods used in all 81+ turbo 3.8's but please if anyone knows for sure correct me on this.............i dont feel like going back thru and finding out where i saw this fact again....lol.......now i know where i saw it..." http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/blocks/8041block.html here........oh well if nuthin else maybe some of you 3.8 guys wont "knock" the 4.1 n/a guyz anymore......lmao ya right.......j/k

hey im not tryin to win a pissin match just like the facts........and i would imagine being these 2 sites are 2 of the largest i have found for info and they have reputable people it seams runnin them then these are facts.......i hope this will maybe help u out in future also.....doubt it but ya never know.......lol.........

thankx
i guess i realized i knew more on the 4.1 then i had realized now about the tt setup thats a different story lol.........

brooks
brooks

 

[S2V6RACER]

Yes, all 4.1 cranks have rolled fillets on the rods and journals from what I have read. Obviously you would want to verify this with the engine you are purchasing. The 4.1 block is not as strong as the 3.8, that is a fact. The decks are prone to cracking. There are people out there using them, but I have NEVER heard of one being pushed as far as a 3.8 block. I am comparing this to a 86/87 109 block. I wouldn't consider pushing your engine as far as a twin turbo combination can go. It's your call. I would start out with a 109 block and girdle it. Then try out your twin setup. I think it will be pretty cool.

All I can say without going through and digging up tech, is there just very few doing this, and it is for a reason. There is a tech article on GNTTYPE.ORG on prepping a 4.1 block for turbo applications and I recall it saying if there is a 3.8 block available, use it.


Good luck.

 

[b4black]

The twin turbo set up is likely a vintage Gale Banks blow-thru system. I don't know much about it, but Hot Rod Magazine got a '81 Turbo Regal to run 13.25@108 on pump gas using one.

The 4.1 can't use SBC pistons, but it can use the rings when bored 0.035".

Block strength probably only become an issue when running sub 12 second times. For a slower car, take advantage of the extra displacement.

A 4.1 should have a 350C behind it. It also has a ESC/knock sensor. I would add a blow-thru turbo as it is and worry about the integrity when it starts becoming fast-fast. Either the Banks TT or a 86/87 single turbo/exhaust plumbing.

 

[nasty83regal]

thankx for the replies.....i'll have pics soon hopefully but not on pc...hes mailing me them...snailmail...lol.....so once i get it i'll holler and let ya know.....anyone have a site about this tt setup b4black mentioned???????

 

[nasty83regal]

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/recipes/41recipe.html is where i read on the 4.1's goods and bads....they seamed to have alot about them and yes ted it does say if you have a 86-87 3.8 already that is good then dont use the 4.1 but i dont i have the 4.1 only.......but it seams to me that it will do the job i want it for.....just a street machine......the only reaon im lookin at the tt setup is due to price.....i mean the guy is offering it to me for 200 for the headers and intake hosing.......so not a bad deal and would probably go 150........if it falls thru im going 455...may anyhow......depnds on the deals that come my way like i have about 5 455's lined up but im a strong believer in small displacemnt engines giving out large power.....so we'll c what happens also depends on cond. of my block...of which i havent gotten out yet etc........so we'll c what happens...

 

[gary brooke]

production motors for the 3.8 & 4.1 are basically the same.4.1 has siamesed bores & weighs 110 lbs. 3.8 weighs 112 lbs.just the block. i think 4.1 only made 81-84. the 109 block is like comparing apples to oranges.i have 3 4.1 & 2 3.8.go with the 4.1!

 

[nasty83regal]

i appreciate your comments and am glad to hear you have the 4.1's.....do you have any idea of hp or trq from the 4.1's??? just curious if any of yours are built.............i was thinkin the same thing on the 86-7 block vs the 4.1 since the 4.1 stopped in 84 its kinda not even the same comparison but compare the 83 3.8 to the 83 4.1 then thats more of a equal comparison........ plus with me goin carbed...........its a whole different world then the 86/7 efi engines........oh well just some thoughts.......

hey any of you have a well built carbed 3.8 or 4.1????just curious the numbers you can pull with a well built old fasioned setup like cam carb intake and headers deal?????

also whats the deal with stage blocks???where can u get them???what did they come in?????regualr cars?????? or what????? i havent read much on them so im curious as the 4.1 has a couple varioations of stage blocks......as well of course as the 3.8.......

thankx
brooks

 

[gary brooke]

i think i have info you will need.email phone# will get info to you sat..p

 

[nasty83regal]

hey i tried emailin ya but it got returned so ya might wanna make sure ur email infos correct.....anyhow just email me anything ya can.....im not usually around or im in and out ya know....

thankx again for any info on the 4.1's etc

brooks

 

[KendallF]

Let me see if I can un-confuse you and some of the other people who've posted to this thread. It might help if you read all of the links you've posted as you would probably have figured this out for yourself...

The 4.1 is a different casting from the 3.8, as it has siamesed bores and a 3.965" bore versus the 3.8's 3.800" bore. They share the same 3.400" stroke crank. From the factory, the 4.1s got the same "rolled fillet" crank as the turbo motors, and they interchange. That's why you see people looking for those cranks.

The production 4.1 block casting strength is about the same as the same year-vintage production 3.8 blocks; they stopped making them in 84 so the improved 109 casting for the 86-7 year 3.8s makes them stronger (increased deck thickness, recessed head bolts, stronger lifter valley). The 3.8 NA and turbo blocks are identical for any given year; the 86-7 turbo blocks just had the drain hole drilled for the turbo return.

The production 4.1s have had problems cracking in the deck area at the water holes so if you're going to try and lean on it, use studs and chamfer the first thread or so at the deck surface. There is a good writeup on www.gnttype.org on the 4.1; read the whole thing...

Stage motors were never offered in production vehicles; they were sold for racing applications and ran successfully at Indy, in the Busch Light series and ASA circle track cars, and in drag cars. Read up in the stage forum here or do a search on my name as I've posted some details on the various Stage blocks before.

Good luck with a carbed dual turbo setup. You would probably have better luck and more power with any of the factory EFI'ed turbo setups; the carb applications are hard to tune properly for more than 5-6 psi, IMO. Now, of course, I will hear from all of the people who are running 18 psi with no problems.

 

[nasty83regal]

actually i didnt go into the detail you mentioned but that was because there was no need to i was just pointing out the errors of the previous post before mine or answering items left unaddressed.....where as the crank and such...and the castings.....yes of course the bore is different if it wasnt then it wouldnt be a 4.1 it would be a 3.8 but same basic block indeed obviously different castings due to obvious things as bore and such.......but content and most everything else about the block is identical..bout the only major difference besides obvious is the fact that the 4.1 has ribs of which the 3.8 doesnt so adds strength the 3.8 doesnt have....6 and half dozen of the other.........thats all i was saying.....

and as far as reading what links i put the whole way thru i did indeed read them.......but from what im reading you just pretty much repeated what we all had put earlier.......except the ;last paragraph about carb vs efi.....of which is kind of obvious the advantages of efi vs carb and visa versa........im not getting rude or anything so please dont take it that way im just saying that i didnt see anything new in what you wrote.......

oh well probably useless anyhow i'll probably build a old fashioned carb headers and usuall **** setup and if i can figure out how that 82 regal did the stroker setup then i will go that route...

thankx
brooks

 

[b4black]

Originally posted by KendallF
the carb applications are hard to tune properly for more than 5-6 psi, IMO. Now, of course, I will hear from all of the people who are running 18 psi with no problems.

I wish I could run 18 psi .

Anyway, every factory carb/turbo runs 9 psi stock. It's not carb that limits boost. It's just a less advanced system. The SFI cars have MAFs, better plumbing, better ignition. And a PROM language that has been decoded.

If the carb/turbos had as many people trying to figure them out as the SFI/turbos do, they would be much faster as well.

 

[nasty83regal]

hey anybody have any info on Ak Miller Enterprises or just ak miller?????i guess this is who this twin turbo setup is supposed to be from.......any ideas or anywhere to go please let me know

thankx
brooks