Need help w/ direction to go

[xlr8ngn]

I am building a long rod stock block motor right now, but my friend came across a fellow with a stage motor that is willing to trade some things my friend has. All I have to do is pay my friend for his stuff. This is supposed to be a Busch motor that is practically new. I have not seen it, but he sent me the following pictures. What do I need to find out about this engine, and what do these typically go for. TIA.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage15.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage16.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage17.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage18.jpg

 

[StageII86]

Well,

You never know whats inside. Got to stick with the BILLET crank that was in mine, but had to go w/ shorter rods. THe nice heads made up for it. I paid $6k for mine 3 1/2 yrs ago, same setup. I was rewarded with alot of really nice stuff inside that I was able to re-use. Try to find out AS MUCH AS YOU CAN before making a deal.

John

 

[turbodave231]

The motor in the pics appear to be an on-center engine. Probably a 153 block (4.1 stage 2 block). You want to know what it has for a crank. If it is even fire or odd fire, and rod journal size.

If it is even fire, and standard buick rod size, you will have a good set of rods, crank, block, heads and intake. With any luck the block will be already drilled for a wet sump.....but don't count on it. The dry sump pan and pump will bring a few bucks on ebay.

Get the pan off and bring your measuring calipers!!

DR

 

[10SV6]

That's a cross bolted 153 block. There won't be internal oil passages.

 

[Mac in SD]

Looks like an even-fire to me...

...an odd-fire distributor would have unevenly-spaced terminals. As far as internal oil passages, I think 10SV6 means it doesn't have internal pickup or pressure-in provisions, so you'd have to go with external pickup from the pan, and oil-in at either the front or back "towers". No biggie. I'd go for it.

 

[xlr8ngn]

I am going to have to hunt for my Buick Power Source manual. It has been missing since I moved last year. I am going some time this week to see it.

I should check the crank to see if it is billet or I am assuming it may be forged?

Odd fire or even.

On-center or Off.

Oil pickup provision/drilled.

What else should I look for? Did some have titanium valves? Were all solid roller motors? Which part numbers should I look for? Rod construction/length, etc.

 

[10SV6]

In one of those shots you can see the side bolt for the rear cap. That block will be one of the later 153 on-centers.

You can't always believe the distributor for the even-fire vs. odd fire. Somebody COULD swap in an even fire one to make a sale. Pull the pan and look at the crank. If it has the split rod throws it's an even fire.

Somebody could write a novel about the slight differences in stage stuff, and the different ways to skin the cat in putting them together for our turbo cars.

Good luck

 

[turbodave231]

I saw that #4 main cross-bolt head in the one picture. I thought that cross bolted blocks had all the center mains cross bolted and some had the #1 main cross bolted.

But I know from experience that there were very few stage 2 blocks made that are the same.

I beleive that the distributor caps for odd fire motors had the electrodes extended inside the cap. I remember working on some early Buicks with the odd fire "shaker" V6 (and HEI). the caps looked the same externally but were different inside.

Bill Anderson will know alot more in this area than myself. I don't think I've ever seen a Stage 2 odd fire motor.

If this motor is even fire (which it probably is) you want to know:

What stroke?
What rod length?
What kind of rods?
What kind of valves?
Jessel or T&D rockers

(you can use the titanium intake valves but the TI exhaust valves get into a questionable area)

Combustion chamber volume? Small chamber heads require big dished pistons to get rid of compression.

The cam, If it is a long duration roller grind might be reground into a useable grind for turbo use... this depends on lobe centerlines.

DR

 

[xlr8ngn]

Looked at it tonight.

The block is a 153, the front and rear mains are cross bolted, there are no provisions for drilling for wet sump. It is a billet even-fire crank that has been lightened in the throws, been knife edged and polished over by hand. The rods are on center and are around 6.5" long. It has JE pistons. I did not pull the intake, but it did have roller valve train and titanium retainers. The guy said it has about 12 laps on it. It did look brand new and the paint is not blistered anywhere. My friend and I did strike a deal with the guy for a trade. What is it worth so I know how much to pay my friend. Thanks for your help, and I am sure as I start the build process I will have alot more questions.

 

[RealFastV6]

Dave is correct in that the oddfire cap is identical to the evenfire cap.

 

[Mac in SD]

Originally posted by RealFastV6
Dave is correct in that the oddfire cap is identical to the evenfire cap.

Learn somethin' new every day.

 

[xlr8ngn]

What I have right now is a brand new stock crank, a 109 block w/ steel center caps and bored .030, a set of carillo 6.625" rods that I was going to use w/ custom pistons (have not ordered yet), ported heads & intake, PT52 turbo, 50lb injectors, ATR SS DP w/ external wg, ATR SS exhaust. My goal was to be able to run high tens.

Now with this stage engine, what direction should I go? I need to re-evaluate my goals, and I hate buying things twice. I know I will have to get new pistons, re-grind the cam, new headers, the heads have been ported on the exhaust (did not take off the intake) modify or buy a new intake, bigger turbo, new oil pan & front cover, DFI/Fel-Pro. Lots of stuff to consider. I also really do not want to turn my car into a full race car. Has anyone put a stock style top end on a stage block? It would sort of be like hunting ground squirrels w/ an elephant gun. But then again, I was worried about driving over my crank w/ the stock block in the 10's. Can you put stock heads & intake on an on-center block?

 

[KendallF]

You could put iron heads on it..it would be kind of a waste of the extra head bolt holes. You would have to heavily modify a stock intake to work. I would sell all of your stock block parts, pick up a set of Champion or TA Perf. aluminum heads, and a BGC intake. Somebody in GA has them for sale in a recent thread.

You will need a Duttweiler external pickup oil system or similar, a new cam (can't regrind the old one for conventional valve layout), and a bunch of little BS to go along with it. Just take your wallet out and burn it now...

 

[GNSCOTT]

SFI balancer and flywheel
injectors
FAST system or DFI if ya don't have it now
modify the 4bbl intake
remove AC/heater box or buy a ATR kit that fabs the stocker to fit the stage heads.

I paid $2800 for my stage motor with a 4.10 bore. I used block, crank, rods, lifters, rockers and heads. Getting a deal ike that was a curse. After that, I had to build it.

 

[xlr8ngn]

Picked it up tonight. Here are a few more pics.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage2.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage4.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/xlr8ngn/Stage5.jpg

GNSCOTT, you and I got about the same deal It too may turn into a curse for me.

 

[xlr8ngn]

Kendall, where can I get the info on the external oil pickup and cover modifications? Thanks.

 

[Mac in SD]

Here I go again...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52044

(Prior thread discussing this issue. )

I've had an epiphany...a catharsis....
1. You can't build a stage 2 setup for less than $125,000. After all, it MUST be a tube-framed, 7-second, twin-turbo with a Motec.
2. You're better off joining a monastery.
3. Sell the car. Sell the wife. Sell the kids.
4. Whatever you do, it's not worth it.

Give up now.

 

[ChrisCairns]

Re: Here I go again...

Originally posted by Mac in SD


I've had an epiphany...a catharsis....
1. You can't build a stage 2 setup for less than $125,000. After all, it MUST be a tube-framed, 7-second, twin-turbo with a Motec.
2. You're better off joining a monastery.
3. Sell the car. Sell the wife. Sell the kids.
4. Whatever you do, it's not worth it.

Give up now.

Stop sugar coating it !! ( )

It will totally take over your life.

You'll get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby; instead you'll walk out to the garage and start wrenchin'.

Your wife will leave you .... you won't notice until 3 ½ months have passed. You'll only become aware that something is wrong when the milk in the carton has solidified.

Instead of using the toilet paper for it's intended purpose while sitting on the throne, you'll jot down notes on how to rerun the exhaust pipes. And still forget to use the toilet paper for it's intended purpose. Partly why your wife has left you.

You will start to wonder if it's better to eat eggs with an open end or a box end wrench.

The only reason the electricity bill will get paid is it's too hard to see without light where the -10 line should go through the frame.

Your wife will make an appointment to meet with you for reconcilliation and you'll bring your turbo with you so you can bell mouth the inlet while you're listening.

The ONLY good part about getting into S2 stuff is......

You'll be leaning over the fender a lot more....and it will really start to feel good since you're wife will still be gone.

 

[Reginald West]

I will advise against trying to use stock heads on a staged block.I tried this about 7 years back with a set of ported and polished iron heads.All I did was change head gaskets. It might work if you keep your foot out of it and the boost down low but then why have a stage 2 if you can't let it all hang out? There was a big difference when I went to 14 bolt heads never lost another head gasket.

AS for cost and problems of going stage 2 some of those things that Chris is saying are true.



REG

 

[xlr8ngn]

I am having a hard time figuring out what I want to do. I have a n/a spare regal body I could gut and make into a drag car. I have a 400 w/ transbrake, a set of new ladder bars and coil overs. Or I could make my 86GN into a bruiser, but I am really torn right now.