Need help with a 200-4r that is whining when put in gear

[regalman4925]

This is my first post on here, I have been on gbodyforum.com for probably 10 years and been around g body cars for almos1 20 years. I am having issues getting reponces on g body forum since they don’t seem to get any traffic anymore. i currently do not own a turbo regal but I have owned multiple regals and cutlasses over the years and know a good amount about g body cars

Ok so I have a fresh motor that I have put together for my 442, I am dead set on keeping a 200 4r in this car. the tranny that came with it failed, not sure if I did it to it or if it already had issues since I bought it with no engine. Since then I purchased a good portion of a parts 442, basically everything except the shell, frame and rear end. I used the KZF out of this car to replace the first KZF that came with mine. the torque converter from this tranny had a crack in it so I reused the torque converter from the first one. now this current tranny before i started pulling the engine back out was making a whining noise when I put it into gear but seemed to shift as intended and nice and crisp to say the least. I have read about 1000 things on what this could be, I have read that the front pump could be bad, I have read that the torque converter could be bad, I have read that 200 4rs are knows to have a whine to them in at least 1st gear…. So here are my questions

Is the whine a normal occurance with the 200 4rs? If so then I have no issues and will have to learn to live with it.

If it’s the front pump, can I rebuild this on my own? I have read both that I can do it myself and other places say that it requires machining

What are the chances that the torque converter is bad? the closest one I can find to stock says 2025 stall

If I need to rebuild or replace a tranny then I will but it is going to push my project back further. I am not the type that is going to replace something that is not broken or repairable so this is my last option

I have one more option, I have a 200 4r that came out of something like a caprice or similar. I pulled this from a car years back in the salvage yard in a wrecked car that had a date code on the torque converter saying it was less than 3 months old. The tranny had been cleaned and resealed so I have to assume it had a total stock overhaul done on it. so I know people say that these are not as good as the KZF/other performance versions, I have also read that a normal stock 200 is the same internally minus the valve body, servos, governer… IF this is true, whats to stop me from pulling the parts from my bad KZF tranny and throwing them in the rebuilt non performance tranny?? And then maybe throwing that brand new 2025 converter on it?

I already know you guys are going to want the engine info lol. I have a freshly rebuilt 350 ram jet long blocked that is topped with a holley stealth ram EFI intake. GM advertises 350hp/400 torque. I have no intentions of doing anything else to this engine, this car being a 442 I do not want to turn it into a track car or anything that could risk destroying it. I am more after a pro touring type of car with upgraded engine, suspension and brakes with stock theme paint and interior. So it wont see any drastic abuse is what I was getting at.

 

[greeneyegi]

my tv cable was adjusted too tight once and it whined.
does it whine in park or just while in gear?
under throttle or not?

 

[regalman4925]

only in gear, I honestly never drove it enough with this motor to see if it made it past first. i put my 355 into it and was working on body work, then decided to put together this other motor that had been sitting on the shelf for years and put it in. short story is i am playing musical motors lol. i am willing to bet my TV cable was not adjusted properly mainly because it was a stock cable that was not adjustable.

 

[regalman4925]

this noise sounds like i have gear driven timing in the engine, that's the best way i can describe it

 

[standupjskiguy]

Neither of my Regals have any whine. First thing, check the fluid level to be sure it's not sucking air.
It could also be a bad seal on the trans filter allowing air in.

 

[VIN7]

If it whines in gear only I would suspect the converter. When my trans had the gear drive sound it did it in p/n and r4321 positions, it was the pump.

 

[TexasT]

So this trans, has it been into? If so has the pump been upgraded to hardened rings?
Have you put a gauge on it to see what the pressures are? Take one in each gear with the tv at idle. Then disconnect the cable from the carb and pull it out and see what your pressures jump to in each position of the gear selector(prnod321).
This will tell us if the pump is pumping. Also the pressure relief could be bypassing but this can result in the vent putting fluid out.
Are you using a stock filter setup?
Fluid clean and red?
Good converter? You know the history of it?
Might be time to pull the trans and at least inspect the pump. Maybe put the hard rings and hard stator support. And a larger boost valve, rev boost valve and the 700r4 spring. You can set the front end play. If you think the trans needs more upon inspection you can go in deeper. Maybe do some vb mods and put in a larger 2nd servo. Lots of ways to go.

 

[bison]

What pressure regulator? I would measure the pressure at minimum TV and play with the throttle valve cable and see what you get for pressures at max and no TV also.


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[regalman4925]

Well, the problem right now is that the motor and tranny just came out of the car. I just found a 200 out of a ss for 200 tonight in town so I have another option there. At minimum I would have the correct torque converter

 

[TexasT]

Well, the problem right now is that the motor and tranny just came out of the car. I just found a 200 out of a ss for 200 tonight in town so I have another option there. At minimum I would have the correct torque converter

By correct torque converter you are talking about a stock 25 or so year old technology having piece. Technology has made significant advances in torque converter tech in those years. I'm all about budget but I like to go fast and get decent mileage. Not that it wont work, just that it is 25 yrs old and probably pretty worn out if it is the stock one.

 

[regalman4925]

If you want to make that argurment you could say that the whole teansmission is old technology....

Right now I have my known bad kzf apart on the bench and thinking that the governor, valve body and servo is going into a stock rebuilt 200. the parts store has a 2025 stall torque converter I can buy

 

[TexasT]

If you want to make that argument you could say that the whole transmission is old technology....

Right now I have my known bad kzf apart on the bench and thinking that the governor, valve body and servo is going into a stock rebuilt 200. the parts store has a 2025 stall torque converter I can buy

It is old tech. It was designed in the 70s, and probably has roots in the 60s. But to get better performance involves going to an electronically controlled unit and associated computer to control it. if we can get better performance with a few $100 I'm in. And generally during an overhaul the trans gets new clutches with possibly better linings, maybe additional clutches in od and maybe direct depending on the builder. A better band friction material. Better parts in the pump and some of the hard parts that aren't exactly good materials, so it is more modern.

What was discovered as bad in your known bad unit?
Manufacturer on the part house unit?
Do you have a trans part distributor near you? I have used a reman dacco with success. Though my local dacco has a transtar sign now and I haven't been in there since they put the new sign up. I think it was about $150 or so.

 

[regalman4925]

The one I can get locally is a dacco, it listed the stall at 2025 for the 442 and 2000 for the mcss. I am pretty set on replacing the converter right now so no issues there and unless I figure out I can't I am planning to swap the valve body, servo and governor from the kzf into the rebuilt tranny I have. Anyone see any reason not to do this? If it can't handle the power I really am not out anything since I already have it

 

[TexasT]

Probably the same part number on that converter.
I'd do it. Gives you a base line.

 

[regalman4925]

Well today I went ahead and pulled the assumed rebuilt tranny apart and it in fact was a rebuild with a trans tec kit or at least the seals were. It appears to have had the servo upgraded also but I went ahead and moved all of the kzf parts including the governor, valve body and servo over to it. I am going to pick up a torque converter, filer and pan gasket this week and get this thing in. I appreciate all of the help!