Need pics of draw-thru

[Peter]

DT/BT

One of the reasons for keeping the distance between the carb . and intake valve on BT/DT systems is the potential "bomb" effect.
Can you imagine if the intake pipes and intercooler on an EFI system were full of A/F, and the thing backfired. Not a pretty sight!

I just love all this inovation. Keep going guys.

Why are we messing around with injecting air and NO2? Whats wrong with stapping an oxygen bottle on there and getting the the real stuff???,

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Re: DT/BT

Originally posted by Peter
Why are we messing around with injecting air and NO2? Whats wrong with stapping an oxygen bottle on there and getting the the real stuff???,

Sound GREAT

YOU FIRST! LOL

Seriously tho. I haven't heard of anyone experamenting with oxygen. Probabley would be another BOOM bomb. Maybe someone smart like Dr. Jacobs can figure this one out or how to meter it. Actually, oxygen is released from water so adding water injetion would sort of be like adding oxygen.

 

[SPL311]

Are you guys mind readers or what!

I have been looking into building my motor with a Weber for a while. I had wondered if anyone has done this, if the intake runner would be too long............

To get you guys up to speed. I have posted here before - a long time ago. You are the reason (along with ScottyZ) that I am going the turbo V6 3.8 in my custom. I am building a Datsun Roadster with the carbed 3.8 turbo, and because of hood clearances I was going to use a Weber. The turbo must sit along the right bank of the motor with the carb facing forward. Plans are to custom build (if I have to) exhaust manifolds to bring the left exhaust across the front of the motor to the right side, join the right exhaust and into the turbo. Use a 3 inch down pipe and reduce to 2.5 at the muffler in the very back (maybe over the axle as room allows). Use a 48 DCOE with air horns and a freash air intake plumbed to the front, then use a 2 inch runner that dumps into a 4 barrel manifold.

I have thought about using an injected intake manifold from a later car, but I understand these should not be used with a air/fuel mixture. The fuel is much heavier and will fall to the closest intake runners and cause them to be very rice and the others to be very lean. Why the cars with injectors at the intake (TBI) have a manifold like a carbed unit. Using a large pelum, one needs to place the injectors at the valve (lower intake runner).

This is a great thread!! Hope it keeps going. I have never heard of this D!ck guy. Where is there more information on his works?? Sounds like interesting stuff!

Pictures of my project are at www.picturetrail.com/SPL311 As you can see, I have been working on body stuff, but will have the body off the frame and will be working on turbo plumbing and suspension soon.

Thanks for the great info guys and keep up the good work!

Phil

 

[Peter]

Oxygen injection?

All power adders, turbocharging,nitrous ,nitro etc.,all have the same end effect. To get a larger combustible mixture into the cylinder.

Turbo charging [supercharging] crams a larger amount of A/F mixture into the cylinder without changing the A/F ratio.

Nitrous oxide [NO2] on the other hand alters the ratio of oxygen ,to other gases, in the gaseouse [air] part of the A/F mixture. This is the reason that more fuel has to be added to maintain the oxygen/ fuel ratio.

If we can add oxygen to the mixture in the form of NO2 why not in the form of straight oxygen ? If the proportion of oxygen used is the same as that in the nitrous would it have the same effect? I am relying on my school chemistry/physics for all of this , which was a long time ago ,so I am open to correction any time. I believe that any gas going from a high pressure state to a low pressure state has a cooling effect. So this would be applicable to both nitrous and straight oxygen. I understand that the nitrous, in the bottle, is in a liquid form so there is an added cooling effect from the change of state from liquid to gas ,which would not be available in the case of the oxygen. Even I think that carrying a liquid oxygen supply in your car may be a little extreme! I cannot see that metering the oxygen into the system would be anymore difficult than metering the nitrous. We all know what happens when you get it wrong.

Now that we are injecting oxygen into the system do we need air? In theory we could now do away with the carburetor all together. Sounds far fetched? I hear that the latest BMW engine no longer relies on a throttle plate for engine control. It is controlled solely on valve timing and valve opening, effectively doing away with the carburetor. I believe it is their intention to put this engine into production. With such an engine it would only be necessary to block off the “air pipe” and inject the oxygen. No more air filters. no more intake restrictions.

I have never heard of anybody trying straight oxygen injection, and I am sure there must be a very good scientific reason for not doing it???

Am I going to try this? No sirree Billy Bob. I have enough trouble just trying to keep my Buick road worthy without stretching the frontiers of science. However I would like to see a couple of SBCs on the sacrificial dyno in the interests of science. I believe that the people at CAR CRAFT have a motto of “squeeze until it bursts”. Maybe someone from there may like to try it and give us some entertaining reading.

Now where did I put those funny cigarettes?

 

[b4black]

OK, I know a little chemistry.

First the combustion of fuel is the combination of oxygen (from air) and hydrocarbons (gasoline). The products of this reactions are primarily water and carbon dioxide.

HC + O2 ---> H20 + C02


Water is produced (that's what drip from your tailpipe in the morning), not consumed by this reaction. Any water added by water injection passes thought unchanged. It can not break down into hydrogen and oxygen. It's primary benefit is to lower the combustion tempertures, thereby reducing the likelyhood of detonation. I presume it lowers the temps by absorbing heat as it goes from liquid water droplets to steam. (Some of this probably occurs in the intake as well).

Alcohols a kinda of a hybrid between a fuel and water. They have a hydrocarbon component and a water-ilke component, H3COH. They are more volatile than water which means they evaporate more easily. They are more likely to become a vapor in the intake than water, therefore cooling the air/fuel charge. They also contribute to the amount of fuel. They don't provide extra O2 for combustion however. The -OH group quickly forms water.

As Peter just said, adding N20 does liberate O2. This adds to the combstion process.

Pue Oxygen, O2, would do the same, but it would be very hard (dangerous) to handle. It tends to corrode things easily. It would react with hot, vaporized fuel so quickly, it would never make it through the intake. Injecting it directly into the cylinder would maybe work.

 

[Turbo-Rich]

Re: Oxygen injection?

[
I believe that any gas going from a high pressure state to a low pressure state has a cooling effect. So this would be applicable to both nitrous and straight oxygen

] That's the exact reason I've been ponderring propane



However I would like to see a couple of SBCs on the sacrificial dyno in the interests of science

sacrificial SBC's Good one! Lets sacrifice them to th eBuick Gods!



Now where did I put those funny cigarettes? [/B][/QUOTE[

UHhhh, what were we just talking about?

 

[Turbo-Rich]

**** Datsun

21st Century Turbo

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1807577626&r=0&t=0

 

[Peter]

Thanks Rich. I guessed there must be some reason why its not being done. My chemistry teach. always said that I should not sleep through his lessons, as it may be useful some day. How did he know I was going to be a Buick owner??