need some advice on pump info. . .

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JR1964

New Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
29
I know there are two pump cover cast #'s (#150 early & #088 late),
and there are three body cast #'s (#149, #082, #690).

My question is are there big differences ( one more preferred over the other) between

a pump w/#150 cover & #149 body vs.
a pump w/ #088 cover and #082 body?

This being both have 10vane assy, hrd stator, larger seal drainback hole, .500 tv /.296 rev boost valves.

(#690 body isn't part of this question)

In other words, if you had the two pumps in front of you, which
one would you install on your modified 2004r and why?

_______________________________

Jim
 
either one will be just as good.the pressure regulator balancing oil is among one of the things that was changed and i use either one and have never had any negative feedback on either combination that is properly inspected and assembled.
 
I asked because I dropped off my pump (#082,#088) at a perf trans shop
to be machined to get clearances back in spec and was given a #149,#150 when
I picked it up. Mine may have not been fixable, though it looked good, or the other
was easier to get together sooner.

If I had the #690 I'd probably ask for the same in return.

Thanks for the info Chris,

Jim
 
Read this:

*PUMP:
There are two stators used. 150 casting is 81-82, and 088 is casting for 83-90. There are 3 pump bodies used : last 3 casting numbers, 149 (81-82), 082 (83-86) and 690 (late86-90). The 150 casting pump stator will only work with the 149 casting pump bodies, and vice versa. The pressure regulator valves will only work with corresponding pumps too. The valve with a solid valve, no hole, will only work in a 150/149 combo. The valve with the hole will only work in the 088 casting stator. If not, severe pressure problems will result. The 088 stator and both the 082 and the 690 pump bodies will interchange.

We will divide this into two parts. The pump body, and the pumpcover or stator.

*PUMP BODY: First, never use a pump body twice unless you are reinstalling the SAME pump rotor,slide,and veins,
that came out of the running trans. If you are going to reuse,modify pump body as will be explained and reinstall. If pump rotor,slide and or body needs to be replaced start with a "refinished" body. The ONLY way to correctly do this is a tideous and time consuming method. First, our experiance has led us to use GM parts EXCLUSIVLY and they must be ordered in sets from them(GM) at the request of the builder. They must be exact to .002. This is how we do it and have been commended on it by GM themselves:

We at PTS Xtreme now offer 4340 Billet pump rotors and slides. To date and 500 sets later, NOT ONE FAILURE!!!!!. However, the only negative side to these parts is they are expensive to make. BUT, no pressure drop hot and NOT ONE FAILURE! The other important thing about these rotors and slides is that we make every one the exact same down to the 1000th thousandth!.
Another PTS Xtreme FIRST!!!!!

Also, We have seen NO GAIN , at all , except in the late 2000 and up 4l60e's, utilizing the 13 vane setup. In fact.... It is actually weaker and someday if you have one in your hand you will see why. We make our 4340 ones 10 vane and that is all that is needed. PERIOD! No myths, no bullshiit.
If you arev to retain the stock material rotor and slide, PLEASE DO NOT USE AFTERMARKET SETS!!!! THEY ARE VERY Inconsistant in size and in material workmanship.
WARNING Will Robinson.... Very important step here.
Use only GM parts ...slide,rotor,veins,all purchased at the same time, all measured at the same time. 10 Vein is more than enough. Reason for increase in vein count, was to try to knock down the pulses or pulsation of the pump. We noticed quite an improvement from 7 to 10 but not much more 10 to 13. We still use the 10. GM actually has 16 different part numbers for slides and rotors. The aftermarket has 1!!!! That should tell you something!!!!

Remove any burrs in slide and rotor. (Yes,even if brand new right out of box is being used,as I have not seen one yet right out of box with no nicks or burrs at all, Not one.) Wet sanding by hand in solvet and sanding edges with 600 or so over GLASS works well.
Wash in hot water and dishsoap and compressed air dry and set aside. The Chrome Moly ring kits have been known to be a little rough too. We wet sand with 600 over glass in solvent the flat edges and then fine wire wheel the circumferance. It is imperitive that the pump rotor and slide are measured very carefully. They MUST be within .002 of the pump cavity depth.
Too loose and line pressure will be low hot, and too tight, rotor and slide could bind, and break rotor, slide,converter neck,or all the forementioned parts. We set them .0013 in the hole, or in the "pocket". The way this is done is, the face is cut, or surfaced. Then another tool bit comes in and with the premeasured rotor and slide thickness', cuts it to .0013 clearence. This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!! . The CNC mill then cuts the relieve groove in front to allow more drainback behind seal relieving pressure on seal. (On the 690 pump bodies , Gm did this. On the 082, 149 pump bodies they need to be modified.)
All are done on a CNC machine. That is how they were done originally, and this is the way it should be done now. If you have a good pump body and have the ability to measure it to the thousandth, you could play rotor roulette and get your calipers out and measure 50 slides and rotors before you get two that would fit, PERFECTLY. AND, you could probobly pull it of, but it is not exact. And........another point or intrest would be...... the aftermarket ( parts co's) gives a tolerence of .7071-7076 which is six thousandths and the tolerence for the pump is two thousandths, THIS WILL NOT WORK!!!! It will be either too loose or too tight. See the problem with aftermarket 10 and 13 vein swaps? Now, all the 13 vein rotors and slides I have seen are all on the thicker side of the scale so most will bind when hot if not properly clearenced.
Ok, now we modify the pump return hole by drilling it to 9/64ths. From both directions.
In pump bushing bore the 690 pump bodies have a "step" at which the bushing seats against when installed. The 082, 149 bodies do not, so we mill a slot on three sides of bushing bore 1/4 inch down. After red loctiting the teflon coated bushing, press in hole with arbor press and bushing driver. Then , "peen" the bushing or "stake" the bushing into the milled flats. Flip over , and press in red loctited seal into seal bore. Assemble all pump rotor parts in , of all things, Cam shaft install lube. The red stuff.

*PUMP STATOR:
A hardned stator should always be installed. But there is a correct way to do this and a hacker way to do this. We will discuss the correct way and if anything varies from this it would fall into the other catagory.
Remove bolts from old stator. PRESS out with a press, not with a hammer by beating on. If the stator just falls out when pressed against a bench, ck bore closely for damage, and or walking. Now to install stator red loctite the base surface. Clean the bore cavity real well. Use dowel pins to guide as you press it in . DO NOT BEAT IN WITH HAMMER!!!! after presed in,replace screws with a drop of loctite and reinstall.Stator Guide pin is also OD clutch washer lube. Drill feed hole .040 for feed to washer.Drill seal return hole 9/32 as well. Now after stator has been pressed in , chuck it up in lathe and ck for the stator to be perpendicular to the pump surface. I only see 1 in 20 that is actually perfectly straight...1-20!!!!!!!!!! So then to resurface perpendicular to the stator, we must "parrell deck" meaning you cut the back side of pump , then bring carriage around and cut the front side without moving material being machined, so everything is cut to center....... meaning the stator is EXACTLY 90 degrees to the pump surface. Not doing this is a big cause for front pump failure as if it is not performed,they are fighting center all the time and will eventually bind in cavity. End result,premature pump failure.
Now installing valves and pump blow off.
The use of either a stock pr valve or the slightly modified aftermarket ones are fine. The pressure reg spring should be a little stronger but the stock one is just fine. The 1-2 int boost valve is available in both .300 and .400 sizes for 1-2 and reverse line boost pressure rise. We recommend the .400. The .500 tv boost valve is also recommended with a 5.46 TV boost valve in the works.(More on this to come late spring.) We now even make a 5.70 TV pump boost valve. Polish lock up valve and reinstall cking the lock up valve springs for rust or fatigue.


Here is the rest of the strengthening the 2004r.:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31365

Bruce
WE4
 
the clearance is important between the rotor and slide my indexing method in the manual is bulletproof,HOWEVER that decking theory is just that.the faces need to be flat ,that is essential however the pararralel decking is a waste of time imo.high line and cheap rings combined with poor alignment break rotors.skyjacked line increases the pressure in the rotor pocket causing failure.this is the cause .a staor off center.005'" isnt going to break the rotor.tens of thousands left the factory like this.the failure was caused by the cheap pump rings.
 
hrmm..

chris718 said:
the clearance is important between the rotor and slide my indexing method in the manual is bulletproof,HOWEVER that decking theory is just that.the faces need to be flat ,that is essential however the pararralel decking is a waste of time imo.high line and cheap rings combined with poor alignment break rotors.skyjacked line increases the pressure in the rotor pocket causing failure.this is the cause .a staor off center.005'" isnt going to break the rotor.tens of thousands left the factory like this.the failure was caused by the cheap pump rings.

Well I guess I was "told", eh?
I guess all my years of working on this, must have all been in vain.
Next time I will just call you Chris to find out, instead of spending countless hours and countless dollars to determine the causes.
Where the hell were you 10-15 years ago? You would have saved me a ton of time and money.
:rolleyes:

AND BTW .005 will cause failure. And.. Yes many did leave GM that way......AND..... In the long run, they failed.

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSXTREME.com
 
Here is a realistic scenario.take a brand new gm or aftermarket stator tube and fit it into a brand new converter stator,now try to wobble it and see what happens.next measure the up and down movement of an assembled stator installed in a brand new torque converter.now remember that all mechanical parts have a machining tolerance.if this was so critical beyond .005" the pump rotor would fail as soon as the car rolled off the assembly line.severe warp and wear of the pump body or cover causing binding and cheap rings are more likely responsible than a stator tube .005" off in relation to the crankshaft centerline,the reference point of the converters center.stop the sarcasm before i crack you one :)
 
Thanks for all the info guys.

Bruce, I read that piece over and over till I almost had it memorized before taking the pump to this place.

And Chris, I've got your manual which has been my guide through this rebuild,
among other tidbits from the tech forums here and Team Chevelle.

Here's the thing, When I got into this pump, I wanted it right!
-10 vane pump kit
-Hardened stator
-Teflon bushing
-.500 boost & .296 reverse valves
-Increased seal drainback holes
-Hardened pump rings
-Two pump slide springs
I think that's it...:rolleyes:

The pump 'pocket' measured 0.7100" exactly. The slide AND rotor
measured 0.7071". According to BOTH of you the clearance MUST be
between 0.0010"-.0020" so I seem to be +0.0009" (or 0.0029"). Just to verify this
I assembled it with plastiguage and it measured the same.

So I take the pump to this perf. trans shop ( rather not mention their name) to have it
machined to true the stator and cut the face of the pump body so the 'pocket' measures
about 0.7086" or so to get the clearance at about 0.0015".

Two days later I pick up the pump and notice it's not the one I dropped off but was assured
this one would be fine. In fact he told me the clearance came out at about 0.0014". Cool!

Well, he also told me he prefferred the iron pump rings and never had a problem. :confused:
So a couple days later I take it apart to install the transgo hi-rev pump rings
(which you all say to use) and decide to check the 'pocket' clearance just for piece of mind.
Well guess what, it measures at a clearance of 0.0030"!! :frown:

Now I could go back to tell this guy WTF, since I did tell him what I was trying
to accomplish, but who am I but a novice on his first 2004r rebuild telling a guy
who's been at this for oh, say 25yrs, how to set up a pump! I'm not walking into that scenario.

So the last 2 weeks as I've had time, I've been working on other sections while trying
to think of a solution. One thought came to mind was to take the pump body 'face' down some
using 600-800grit on glass to get the depth right, (which if that's OK to do, I should have done
that from the beginning!) but not sure if that's a good idea. :frown: Whats your opinion?

If I have to order thicker pump/slide/veins from GM, which is fine with me, where
do I order them from? Chevy dealer? The one down the street from me says they only
show ONE number. No specs on thickness! Bruce, you say GM has 16. How do I get these?

What's your recommendation Chris and/or Bruce?

Sorry so long! :rolleyes:


______________________________________________

Jim
 
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