How to: Freshen your used 200-4r pump

[Lil Truck]

Yes, very good info. I would like to add something. On the drain back holes, as was stated, drill the longer one on pump body in steps (starting with a bit slightly larger than current hole and stepping up until 1/4 as last bit) I have an extended 1/4 bit which makes it somewhat easier. I once drilled with 1/4 (not steeping) and the bit did not stay centered in hole, come through on the outside of body. Also I drill the cover hole to 5/16.
Concerning the number of vanes--I am now a firm believer in nothing but a stock 7 vane GM rotor. I have had 2 10 vane rotors break--destroying both pump halves. This past summer I had 2 friends trans with GM (not aftermarket) rotors in them. Drove me and them crazy. Dave Huseck was kind enough to talk to me many times about my problem of pressure fluctuation. Once I told him I had a 13 vane rotor his exact words were "get rid of the 13 vane and put a stock 7 vane in and all your problems will go away" and they did. Pressure was all over the place-even cooler line pressure would drop from 55 @ min. TV to near 0 @ full TV. Most of the bushings were worn from lack of lube. I did NOTHING but change the rotor. Hope this helps someone. BTW, INDEEDGN what max. line pressure do you LIKE?

Thanks for the insight on the 10 vane Lee! I have a USA replacement 10 vane I was planning to use for a fairly stock overhaul. It looks like I will just use the parts out of it that I can with the 7 vane rotor. Anyone know if I can use the 10 vane slide? (With the 7 vane rotor)

 

[Lee O. Thompson]

Thanks for the insight on the 10 vane Lee! I have a USA replacement 10 vane I was planning to use for a fairly stock overhaul. It looks like I will just use the parts out of it that I can with the 7 vane rotor. Anyone know if I can use the 10 vane slide? (With the 7 vane rotor)

It would all depend on thickness of slide---they are not a matched set per say as like a ring and pinion.

 

[Lil Truck]

All this info is very good, I finished my first full 2004r rebuild a few days ago using this pump rebuild information. I have been driving the car for 2 days everything is working great no noises except the bypass valve when it first drops in to reverse at 270psi.

Thanks everyone!

 

[TexasT]

Did you make any mods to the vb or the vb plate? Kinda off topic for the thread but I'm asking anyway . How did you set up the servo clearance and the direct clutch clearance? What did you use for a manual?

 

[INEEDAGN]

Clutter this thread all you want. I purposely reserved all the posts on the first page for the write up, now that it's done you can fill the next 10 pages with nursery rhymes for all I care lol.

 

[Lil Truck]

I did reprogram the valve body with information from a good friend who got me into TBs. It is based off the old school Transgo reprogramming kit, but truly it is a bunch of modifying to the kit instructions and just using a few of the springs. I have read a few other brand kit instructions and it appears the new kits are doing the same things just in a different manner.
I set the servo at approx 0.60 clearance, I will check it again after some miles.
The direct clutch clearance came in at 0.075 with stock steels, since this trans is for a stock motor I did not go for custom steels. I am working on a higher performance trans next and will shoot for 0.055 clearance.

I just have an old 2004r rebuilding dvd that helped keep me on track testing, assembling and checking clearances.

I did not try to max the pump pressure with this build, just used the Transgo PR spring, and stock BRF valves. Pump clearance slide and rotor 0.002 plastigage
No TV - 80
TV @ 2k 120
Full TV - 180
R - 270
2 - 180
1 - 180

I am sure if I had used the 0.500 PR valve and Heaver slide spring the 180 psi readings would be 240-250 psi

 

[Douglee]

When rebuilding my 2004r a couple years ago, I did the recommended incremental opening of the pump seal oil return hole. Unfortunately, the last drill bit broke through the casting(internally) and left me worried I had ruined the pump. After thinking about it for a while and looking over the parts and path of the oil through the tranny, I decided to just go with it and have been enjoying the trans for years. No leaks, shifts textbook with Transgo shift kit, CK boost valve and brings a smile to my face every time I take it out. BTW, it's in a '79 Corvette.
INEEDAGN, thank you for this highly informative thread.

 

[INEEDAGN]

I did reprogram the valve body with information from a good friend who got me into TBs. It is based off the old school Transgo reprogramming kit, but truly it is a bunch of modifying to the kit instructions and just using a few of the springs. I have read a few other brand kit instructions and it appears the new kits are doing the same things just in a different manner.
I set the servo at approx 0.60 clearance, I will check it again after some miles.
The direct clutch clearance came in at 0.075 with stock steels, since this trans is for a stock motor I did not go for custom steels. I am working on a higher performance trans next and will shoot for 0.055 clearance.

I just have an old 2004r rebuilding dvd that helped keep me on track testing, assembling and checking clearances.

I did not try to max the pump pressure with this build, just used the Transgo PR spring, and stock BRF valves. Pump clearance slide and rotor 0.002 plastigage
No TV - 80
TV @ 2k 120
Full TV - 180
R - 270
2 - 180
1 - 180

I am sure if I had used the 0.500 PR valve and Heaver slide spring the 180 psi readings would be 240-250 psi

I'm going to presume your numbers are lower because you didn't piggyback or replace the line bias valve spring with a heavier one. Should still get good results with the stock BR boost valves if the line bias is blocked or stiffened.

 

[Lil Truck]

I'm going to presume your numbers are lower because you didn't piggyback or replace the line bias valve spring with a heavier one. Should still get good results with the stock BR boost valves if the line bias is blocked or stiffened.

Correct, I wanted to keep the pressure down on this first rebuild, it's a learning opportunity with a stock engine and the trans was in bad shape when I got it. Just wanted to see how it performs with a budget rebuild and not pushing any limits of the worn parts.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Correct, I wanted to keep the pressure down on this first rebuild, it's a learning opportunity with a stock engine and the trans was in bad shape when I got it. Just wanted to see how it performs with a budget rebuild and not pushing any limits of the worn parts.

If you did all the pump mods in this thread, the trans will be better off with line bias blocked/piggybacked and you won't notice a difference in shift feel until you are heavy in the throttle (which is where you need the pressure). If you go back into the pan or valve body you should stuff a heavy spring in that valve. The extra WOT pressure will help the worn soft parts, not hinder them.


Now if you went into the pan of a completely stock trans, pulled the PR valvetrain and VB, and put the pressure up at 275 with no pump mods, that can get you into trouble either breaking the pump rings or breaking coils off the blowoff spring. If the pump is built, only good things can come from more WOT pressure. The line bias circuit was engineered to keep max pressure in check so grandma doesn't get whiplash in her delta 88. It has no business being active in a performance trans

 

[Lil Truck]

If you did all the pump mods in this thread, the trans will be better off with line bias blocked/piggybacked and you won't notice a difference in shift feel until you are heavy in the throttle (which is where you need the pressure). If you go back into the pan or valve body you should stuff a heavy spring in that valve. The extra WOT pressure will help the worn soft parts, not hinder them.


Now if you went into the pan of a completely stock trans, pulled the PR valvetrain and VB, and put the pressure up at 275 with no pump mods, that can get you into trouble either breaking the pump rings or breaking coils off the blowoff spring. If the pump is built, only good things can come from more WOT pressure. The line bias circuit was engineered to keep max pressure in check so grandma doesn't get whiplash in her delta 88. It has no business being active in a performance trans

Thank you for that valuable information! I was told people experienced pump failures with stock transmissions when they increased the line pressure, that is why I did not do the modification. I did not know where the failures were occurring until now!

 

[INEEDAGN]

A side benefit of blocking the line bias valve is a boost in accumulator pressure. The accumulator valve gets its tv pressure signal after the line bias, so blocking the line bias nets an increase in accumulator pressure as well, which also helps to firm up full throttle shifts.

I've been told conflicting info on accumulator pressure by the veteran builders. Some are swapping the stock line bias spring with the accumulator valve spring after blocking the line bias. This should increase accumulator pressure. Others are claiming that the act of blocking line bias makes the accumulator pressure so aggressive that it's a moot point to swap the springs. I've devised an easy way to test and datalog accumulator pressure and plan to do a comprehensive test on it someday. But the way things go around here I'll be retired before I get around to playing with it. The BRF 200 has the largest accumulator valve that was ever used in a 200 but the 700 used the same valve design and sleeve. There's a couple 700 accumulator valves that are larger than the 200 and they will swap in. I plan to test those as well. Gut feeling and logic tells me it would be a moot point but I would really like to see data with my own eyes someday.

 

[INEEDAGN]

double post

 

[TexasT]

JakeShoe posted the info I used when doing my diy vb mods.



I also used the transgo instructions as a guide along with recommendations from David Husek for holes sizing for the vb plate.



Sounds like mine is assembled very similarly to the one described above.

 

[Lil Truck]

When rebuilding my 2004r a couple years ago, I did the recommended incremental opening of the pump seal oil return hole. Unfortunately, the last drill bit broke through the casting(internally) and left me worried I had ruined the pump. After thinking about it for a while and looking over the parts and path of the oil through the tranny, I decided to just go with it and have been enjoying the trans for years. No leaks, shifts textbook with Transgo shift kit, CK boost valve and brings a smile to my face every time I take it out. BTW, it's in a '79 Corvette.
INEEDAGN, thank you for this highly informative thread.

I just opened up a pump that was modified by a trans shop and found it had the passages drilled to 1/4 in but had punched into the rotor pocket right at the 90 deg of the slide area. The pump was working fine 270-240 psi, just wanted to check the wear. I am glad you posted this it surprised me when I saw it.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Bumping this thread because I added post number 18 at the bottom of the first page with a question I'd like some discussion on.

 

[Steve V]

Scraped the Teflon layer off two of the Teflon bushings to show the difference.

This is the same bushing as number 2 in the post above. This is a used bushing I took out. Note the porous bronze middle layer (again this is a split bushing).
View attachment 317738

This is the same as number 5 above, note a very thin Teflon coating over Babbitt. Gouged into it good just for fun. (Again this one was a solid bushing).
View attachment 317739


Shout out to the veteran builders, has anyone been using these Teflon/Babbitt solid bushings in either the pump or the direct drum and are they holding up? I was sent two of them in a kit from a vendor but I won't name them because I bought their kit right after the originals became unavailable and it was probably the only thing out there at the time. I've been using them in the direct drum but not the pump. I still have a few to use up.

I would not use them in the pump. I've had the be too tight. I use the split bushing sonnax sells them.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Sonnax is the white Teflon correct?

Same as you I've tried them twice in two different pump housings and they were tight so I didn't even try to run them. I always figured they were Babbitt underneath the teflon but never wanted to ruin one to verify. But then I ruined one anyway (see my other thread) so dug into it for discussion purposes. I'm wondering if they should even be used in the drum but the OE bushing was Babbitt there so it should at least be "as good" since it's wider than stock. Starting to wonder if the bronze would be a better choice but being a split bushing and the rpm of that drum in first,...hell I don't know I guess that's why I asked the question LOL.

 

[Mike T]

In reference to post 4 picture 3 pointing out the #2 pressure regulator land. The instructions that came with the 700 PHK high rev kit says complete removal of the #2 land is a option but doesn't give a explanation of what it is supposed to do. The one that was in my trans was ground flat on both sides. Any thoughts?

 

[INEEDAGN]

In reference to post 4 picture 3 pointing out the #2 pressure regulator land. The instructions that came with the 700 PHK high rev kit says complete removal of the #2 land is a option but doesn't give a explanation of what it is supposed to do. The one that was in my trans was ground flat on both sides. Any thoughts?

Sorry I just saw this. The land is there to cut off converter charge pressure and ultimately lube oil when the pr valve is in or near its max pressure position. When you go to modify it, the questions you should be asking yourself are "How much of this needs to be removed for converter/lube when line pressure forcing it through is north of 250 psi?" And probably the more important question "How much of my available pump volume am I willing to sacrifice for the sake of it?" Because what you're doing is creating a line pressure circuit leak very near the source and at times it can be a precious commodity. There's varying opinions on what is the right thing to do and as I've previously stated, testing it different ways in a car with pressure gauges is still on my to do list. "Back in the day" I simply did as I was told by my boss and we were largely dealing with towing situations and not performance cars. I can make an educated guess that removing the land completely is not the ideal situation for us but whether or not you should grind a flat on it (and how big) I simply can't give you any hard data on at this time. Those that have done the legwork likely won't let you off easy either (and I'm not implying blame if they don't).