New hotair intakes underway!

"Irockwithdirt" I was gonna ask the same question. I guess the first problem, but not a major one, would be that some accessories bolt to the intake, but that wouldn't be hard to remedy. I am curious to know the drawbacks/difficulties/negatives to using an 86/87 intake with the turbo in the stock location, just reclocked. Looking at pictures of an 86/87 i don't see why you couldn't essentially turn the doghouse around and make something work. (i know it probably sounds easier than it is..)

Nathyn
 
#1, the intake we are working on could technically be used for a non intercooled car. It would require a pipe from the re-clocked turbo to loop around to the front of the intake and into the Tb. There would be minimal lag, if it were even noticable at all. It would add a good place to install an alchy Jet, and could easily be upgraded to intercooled later.
As far as passing the back ports goes, the addition of the plenum area allows for equalization of the intake charge and all but eliminates that type of problem. Conceptually such an intake would work, but you would still have the issue of the TB being bolted to the side of a hot turbo. PLus, as I understand physics(not much now so hang on) the blow through throttle body is a better set up than the "suck through".

#2, the closer the tb is to the ports, the better throttle response you are going to have. The difference in response between the v2 cars and the "spearco" type conversions is/was incredible. Right now at the shop we have a V2 intake off the car, and a car with the complete v2 installed. We are essentially working out the bugs on the V2 to create a more refined version. (If you have seen the v2 T-stat housing, you know what I am talking about.)

#3, My first inclination was to use the 86-87 intake and modify the doghouse so a stock location re-clock would work. But its not gonna happen without way more work than it is worth. First of all, the doghouse would have to be cut basically in half to accomodate the turbo outlet, and even then there are no brackets for the turbo. All would have to be adapted or fabricated. One huge problem is that the T-stat housing would exit right into the alternator. That's not gonna work at all. you would have to relocate basically everthing on the intake to get it to work, coil, etc, etc. When you look at the gutted hotair intake, with a new port floor, it looks just like the 86-87 intake anyway.

quite honestly, if there was a big enough market for the V3 style, we would run production on them. I just think it is crazy to go to all that trouble and not realize what the Buick engineers did, there is a better way to do it. And, while I like the idea of being Lee Thompson..or turbo6x2 it is easier to build power with a cooler charge. If it were as easy in the hotair, they would be much more popular. And we would all be in the 11's with these cars. I have only heard a few bad reports about the v2, and I have wanted one ever since that Gp went south. I thought others did to, and now I'm gonna make that a possibility.
 
Sorry all my posts appear to be 10 pages long, but I wanted to try to answer everyone's questions as best I could.

I think the advantages will be impressive once we get some flow numbers, and since we are going to buy a test car on Saturday, hopefully we can get some dyno results too.

That's right, the Syclone Typhoon fabricator is so impressed with the design that he has decided to buy a hotair car for himself. I knew I could convert him.:D
 
thanks, National84 for answering my questions. It really seems like you have your homework done.


THanks,
Nathyn
 
As Mike already mentioned.

A fellow buick guy has been gracious enough to let us borrow one of his hotair cars with the V2 intake installed.

He has also allowed us to borrow a 2nd v2 intake he has, that hasn't been installed, as well as an 86/87 intake.

Mike has a collection of the hot air intakes for the conversion and testing. So we have the pieces.

We are also going to sit down with the owner of the loaner car and discuss some good/bad points of the project and make improvements as neccessary.

When I saw the thermostat housing, I just about fell over after looking upward to the sky to see if a bird just flew over head. Needless to say it is ugly.

Hopefully we can have the first one done in a week or so, and get some flow #'s to compare

stock hotair
JS Modded Hotair
Original V2
86/87

Same day, same bench, so #'s can be compared accuratly.

Mike is also right, after playing in the syclone/typhoon world for past 5+yrs, I am also moving into Buick world with my own car. I have come to conclusion in order to drive a turbo GM, you need multiples to increase the chance one is running.
 
Sounds good

This sounds like a very exciting project, especially with me swearing by the V2 intake kit. I also though the T-stat housing was a little crued, but hey it works. Only thing that concerns me is if theres restricted coolent flow witht hat t-stat. But so far so good, im not overheating, and on a hot day i think i hit bout 190 degrees on the temp guage. But I have some questions. I wouldlike to know what are some of the disadvantages you have discovered with the V2 intake aside form the T-stat housing. I am just curious to know, as i have not found any set backs on the kit yet. But I commend you and everyone you're working with to help give the hotair crew a chance to cool their charge and give us hotair cars the respect we deserve.
 
I have heard a few people say that thay had leaks and could not get high boost numbers....There is an area that Jay welded the port floor in the front of the intake that appears to be a problem area for this...there is about a 50/50 chance of a good weld, we want to be 100%, so that is one thing. Also, we are looking into adjusting the angle of the "doghouse" in order to allow the use of larger turbos. The car we are taking measurements on right now has an 86 Gn unit on it, and there is very little clearance. I want to go t63 or larger without issues. We are also discussing a thermal barrier attached to the turbo bracket to keep from heat soaking the intake. There are also issues with the piping Jay used. WE have a guy that is going to do mandrels instead of angles. These are just the issues we are addressing at the moment.. there are certainly more to come, its a matter of R&D with a v2 car and some other v2 parts.
 
I see the thermostat housing as the big issue.
My car runs ~190, too, with Jay's housing.
Also the waste gate is a problem, too.
Too much hacking and cutting to get the
stock waste gate to work and it is still too
close to the hood. The pipes definitely
need to be mandrel bent with maybe mods
at the turbo outlet would help flow, maybe.
Take care of the gray ghost and if you scratch
my new paint ............. Well do I need to say
any more. Heh, heh.
Hope this is a go, guys!
 
Mark, I already washed the car to keep from getting any finger scratches in it from the car cover dirt.
 
I'll say it again, you guys are making this harder than it needs to be. Port, gut, and have the entry at the stock point in the back.

There is no reason whatsoever for a front entry. Cut the top off, gut it, weld a flat peice of aluminum back on. No leaks to worry about, nearly no fabrication, and it's stock appearing.

As for the welds being ugly, they are but they're not that noticable once everything is bolted into place. My goal is an 11 second daily driver on pump gas and if having welds on my intake will help me get there then it's fine with me.
 
when you say "gut" the intake, do you literally remove everything inside the intake including the zip tubes and the floor? so your turbo is pumping into essentially an open volume? Does anyone have any proven gains from this other than their "butt dyno"?

Just wondering,
Thanks,
Nathyn
 
Cool 84, I would have to agree with you that your goals are entirely within reach without a front entry intake setup. However, i don't like the Tb being mounted to that hot A$$ turbo. I am also not too crazy about going inline with the TB, because I believe there is a big difference in throttle response the closer the tb is to the plenum/runners. Maybe we are over engineering this thing, but I know the results from the TM kit, and really like the way the cars respond to the mod. Ask guys who have them...most love it..and say its the best mod they've done.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but to buy an intercooler setup for a hotair you're looking at roughly $1000, correct? Now, if you don't have access/ability to do the intake work necessary, you wind up with close to $500 in the transformation.Now, without giving an exact price at this point, because were not done yet, I know that Jay's kits were in the $1500 range. you didn't have to do the tracking of parts, just order and bolt it on.

Fullahotair, There are 2 port floors in that intake, remove both, and install only 1. That way the restrictive intake path is gone. Leave the runners in tact, hog them out some while you're in there, and let the good times roll. That will give you a plenum to equalize the pressure.

As a side bar, I will let the cat out of the bag. I want to use an LS1 TB on my engine. That was one of the primary reasons I wanted to do this kit. I can machine that "doghouse" to fit whatever TB I choose, and it is easier than reworking the mount at the turbo.
 
I agree with you 100% that throttle response is greatly improved with the TB on the pressure side of things. With that said I still think it should enter the back. My TB is mounted right at the entrance at the back of the intake. What I don't agree with is the heat transfer. The turbo doesn't transfer much heat to the TB. The compressor housing stays halfway cool most of the time and the air going through the throttle body hardly has time to heat up at the velocity it's going. The front entry seems like too much trouble and cost for too little gain.

One of the changes I forgot to mention a long time ago was that the plugs seemed more evenly colored after I gutted the intake. I have a feeling most of the gains from gutting are from a more even distribution of air and porting is where the big gains are at.

Either way, with all this talk I'm dropping my intake off at the flowbench first chance I get. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it but I have a feeling the numbers are going to be pretty good.

Does anyone know the stock flow numbers and the TM flow numbers?
 
Cool, can't wait to see the results. I'm going to try and drop mine off at lunch tomorrow. I'm not holding my breath because it's the same guy that's building my engine that has managed to take a year just to do an align hone.
 
I talked to Mike some more about the plans, testing, etc.

As well as the extensive flow bench work.

We are also going to put the test car in stock form on a chassis dyno.

After install of Intake, put on Dyno with no intercooler

3rd test will be with an intercooler.

Granted the above may take a few months to do, but should also show real world performance, or lack of.

Also possibility the tune will need to be changed slightly. So that may play a part.

More data the better IMO though.

Good or bad, everybody will know.

Again thanks to 6 to go for letting Mike and I borrow his car to look at and examine as well as his spare intakes. Helps a bunch.

His car does immaculate. My eyes hurt seeing it in the garage. GRIN
 
wow those drawings look exactly like what i drew like 3 years ago when i was coming up with ideas. deja vu, lol.

and no. the hotair intake does not flow very well with a mild port job.

example:

stock 86/ 87 cars with the pro-pain kit run the 86 pill. completely stock cars, stock itty bitty turbo.


i have a 2.5" downpipe, atr up pipe, stage 3 cheetah, open exhaust. i have to use the 28 pill or the engine bogs because it gets too much propane.

technically having a bigger downpipe, open exhaust, and most importantly, a turbo that is double the size of the stock hotair turbo, would mean i would have some mean flow through that intake. but hell no, that is not the case..


good luck wiht the intakes, if they end up being within my price range i will surely pick one up.
 
How do you figure a ported hotair intake doesn't flow well? The single biggest improvement is porting the runners. After gutting, removing the EGR floor and opeining up the entry I could barely feel a difference. But with porting I could really feel it. Your car is lacking an intercooler, that's why the later cars need more alky. You're trapping the same or slower than a stock 87. If a ported stocker can go 10s with no intercooler, I would say it doesn't flow that bad. Look at my mph and the boost levels. Those runs were made before any gutting and it was with ported stock heads, 206 cam, and a little TA49. I think it flowed pretty well.

I doubt there would be any serious improvement from gutting in anything slower than an 11 second car.
 
Test vehicle has been picked up but needs some engine work. (started another thread for suggestions, advice).

Otherwise car looks great.

I am leaving for SEMA in morning, but when I return progress should be made in leaps on this project.
 
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