Newbie FAST no start

[v8zcar]

Hi everyone,
I tried the demo file and other suggestions as listed in my previous post
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54073
but to no avail. I changed the necessary settings in the file to those of an SBC and also changed the Crank ref angle to 50.

The engine will crank and spark and combustion will start. However, it will not continue, meaning it just dies right away. I messed with various settings in the VE table up and down and the plugs showed either rich or lean. I'm at a loss here

Once I get it to where it'll almost start, what can I do? Adjust the cranking vs. CTS table? Start IAC vs CTS?

In closed loop parameters, if I check the closed loop enable box, that will force closed loop based on the rpm settings, right? And if unchecked, it will never run in closed loop? I have the closed loop rpm at something like 3700 rpm, with the box enabled. Should I uncheck the box completely?

One thing I noticed is that my fuel system is not holding pressure after the pump primes. Regulator seems ok so it must be the injectors (RCE) or pump (SX). I changed the prime settings to 25 seconds so that there was pressure when I attempted to crank but still no luck.

Help me! There is a tuner 30 miles away but I SHOULD be able to get this running myself, right?
Spark is at 0 deg (went up and down from 0 to 20)
Crank ref angle at 50 deg
Voltage drops at cranking to about 11
FAST and MSD 6AL are hooked up directly to a distribution block coming directly from the battery. And later in the day I was running off a jump-starting battery charger giving me 13 volts or so.
No external fuel leaks.

The fuel pressure problem is bothering me but with a 25sec. prime, there IS pressure when I crank it...

Thanks in advance,
Owen

 

[RealFastV6]

The Fuel pressure isn't a concern. My car does the same thing with the external pump. It's simply that theres no check valve to in those external pumps like there is in an internal pump.

 

[Chyke]

Research

We need to talk. You have many questions, all good by the way, but all questions you should understand before undertaking such an endevor. Yes it's true everyone needs to learn sometime and experience is the best teacher. But trying to start a new engine is not the time. You should know where to set the crank angle and why it's at that setting. You should understand the difference between open/closed loop and this is separte from start/idle etc. Yes Ve tables will need to be adjusted, but for a reason. Most of the responses you have received already hold the answers. You must get the car started first. You need to go through the process one step at a time and set things where they should be purposefully.
1. Run through your configuration, firing order, injector size, Speed density Yes/No, and why.
2. Make sure all your wireing is absolutely perfect, YES perfect and where they should be
3. Idle parameters, set your IAC gains both P and D.
4. Set your % enrichment at start to about 40-50% more at the current temp.- you will set this differently when the car runs.
5. Timing tables. is this a forced induction set-up
6. Fuel pressure 45psi Yes/No , if not why, What theoretical injector size does your motor require.
7. Idle speed vs temp. Start at 1500 cold 30 F up to 800-1000 at emp depending on set-up.
8. Is everything powering, can you see the asummed values for a cold motor for manifold press, at ambient and 0 rpm with no run.
9. Is your crank reference angle initially set in the box to match the approximately set one on your crank trigger. 50 degrees, etc, 35 degrees, why are you setting where your at.. You must understand these things for incorrect events to stick out at you.
10. What happens when you crank, has it ever tried to fire. Are you sure your fireing order is correct vs the cam.
11. How about fuel pump, are you activating the relay, does this work?


There are many things to consider. With experience you just "KNOW". reread your book. If you have the windows version read the hints. If you page through the small non existence manual that comes with the system and it all looks foreign, it's time to call some one. It shouldn't look like greek, it's not. GOOD LUCK.

Oh, also try changing the "after start vs enrichment", this adds extra fuel for 20 seconds after start to get things going so to speak. What is your deline rate. etc. Is your TPS working correctly. Ensure it reads about 11-12 at idle and increases with pedal.

Take the 25 second prime out, set it to 5 sec, this is more than enough.

Make sure your IAC is working, you might be surprised..

 

[v8zcar]

OK, I WAS logged in and it said I wasn't when I hit submit so this is the second time posting this. Sorry if it sounds terse but I don't really want to retype it all.
So, thanks for your reply. I understand the diff. between MAP and MAF systems, open/closed looop, why VE tables are changed, etc.

1. Run through your configuration, firing order, injector size, Speed density Yes/No, and why.
***383SBC, 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, 36#, MAp because it can run with only 1 sensor to measure MAP, and thus does not have an air flow sensor to restrict air flow.

2. Make sure all your wireing is absolutely perfect, YES perfect and where they should be
***Yes, is perfect

3. Idle parameters, set your IAC gains both P and D.
***Doing this, but what about IAC position or target, doesn't seem to match the values that I enter into the table.

4. Set your % enrichment at start to about 40-50% more at the current temp.- you will set this differently when the car runs.
***Will try this

5. Timing tables. is this a forced induction set-up
***No, 1 bar

6. Fuel pressure 45psi Yes/No , if not why, What theoretical injector size does your motor require.
***Yes

7. Idle speed vs temp. Start at 1500 cold 30 F up to 800-1000 at emp depending on set-up.
***Haven't changed this setting from the demo file which I used as a base.

8. Is everything powering, can you see the asummed values for a cold motor for manifold press, at ambient and 0 rpm with no run.
***Yes, certain values such as MAP, CTS, etc show up. RPM is 0 at no run and shows an increase when cranking

9. Is your crank reference angle initially set in the box to match the approximately set one on your crank trigger. 50 degrees, etc, 35 degrees, why are you setting where your at.. You must understand these things for incorrect events to stick out at you.
***Yes, as per the manual. My understanding is that this is a signal received by the ECU to know exactly "where" the engine is and when to expect the next signal. Like the "trigger" and "home" signals used by the Haltech, the ECU uses this to time events for injection and spark.

10. What happens when you crank, has it ever tried to fire. Are you sure your fireing order is correct vs the cam.
***As stated, combustion occurs but does not continue. Firing order is per the crank and not the cam, same thing I guess?

11. How about fuel pump, are you activating the relay, does this work?
***Pump primes via relay and primes longer with higher value in the settings.

Oh, also try changing the "after start vs enrichment", this adds extra fuel for 20 seconds after start to get things going so to speak.
***Will try this also

What is your deline rate. etc.
***??? what is this reading and where do I find it?

Is your TPS working correctly. Ensure it reads about 11-12 at idle and increases with pedal.
***Yes, but at 15% with throttle closed. The Haltech E6K has a function to zero this reading but I read here that the FAST only needs to know when the throttle is closed and that idle above TPS should be 1 number higher or 10% higher.

Take the 25 second prime out, set it to 5 sec, this is more than enough.
***But not to maintain fuel pressure when I first start to crank. If the auto makers specify a certain pressure at key off in order to achieve a quick start up, then aftermarket systems should also maintain pressure. Makers of aftermarket pressure regulators even use the same quick check method to determine if the regulator is bad-if there is gas in the vacuum hose, then the reg. is bad.

Mine doesn't have gas in the hose but I still get 0 pressure at key-off. Therefore I increased the prime time to be able to crank the engine when there is still pressure in the lines.

I suppose I can do this at 5secs but the engine theoretically should be harder to start, and if the auto makers are right, it throws another variable into the problem. My pump (SX) does not have a check valve but the fuel press. reg. should cover that.

Thanks for the help, I look forward to more!
Owen

 

[Chyke]

OK...

If you can, email me a copy of the file you are currently using. Also, include all the information you can, such as injector size, auto/stick, motor size, WBO2 yes/no, everything, you can think of, NOS, compression ignition etc. Let me take a look and see what I can do. No promises because I am not physically there to see everything on the car. Two things kind of concern me.
1. How fast does your fuel pressure drop to zero after prime
2. You will need to adjust your TPS.

Well go from there...
HMBallou@msn.com

 

[v8zcar]

Chyke,
I emailed you my file but received a message saying your mailbox is not accepting messages.

Owen

 

[Chyke]

You've got mail.

 

[Butch]

I had trouble getting mine started the first time and it turned out that my newly installed fuel pressure regulator was allowing like 100psi and the injectors were not able to open. The trick that I used was to spray just enough starter fluid into the throttle body to keep it running long enough to adjust the fuel pressure. Then it idled buy itself!

Butch

 

[bobbyp]

same problem

I also had a problem getting mine to fire, it ended up
being a voltage drop issue when the starter was spinning.
Check for crank signal, if you got it, check for spark.

 

[bobc455]

The first thing that I thought of when I read your post is that you need to open your throttle blades a bit further- sounds to me like the IAC is letting enough air in to start the motor, but after that the IAC is closing and the motor dies. There should be enough air going through the throttle blades to just about get it to idle right (withouth the IAC).

I have my throttle blades set so that the car idles with *almost* zero help from the IAC. In the Calcom my idle speed is set to 700 RPM, and when I'm in neutral my idle speed is about 800 RPM (because of the air gong through the throttle blades- none goes through the IAC motor). Then when I drop it in gear, the idle drops to about 680 and the IAC just barely cracks open (11-12) to bring it back to 700 RPM. (More IAC is required when the engine is cold, etc.)

When setting it for the first time, I would set the throttle blades open far enough so that you can just see a bit of clearance between the blade and the ID of the throttle bore.

-Bob Cunningham

 

[v8zcar]

IT RUNS!!!!

Borrwed a file from Chris Shaw and along with help from Chyke, it runs!!!

I had to tweak the cranking enrichment, etc. as well as the IAC. Indeed the TB blades weren't open enough. I read a reply by Craig to someone else's post where he said that the IAC target should be about 25...how do you change the IAC target. Even though my engine is running, it's most likely not the best conditions.

Thanks to everyone who helped!
Unfortunately I have a water leak at the back of the manifold... no biggie I guess.

Owen

 

[bobc455]

IAC is not something you can set- you set the idle speed, and the computer moves the IAC so the engine idles at the correct RPM.

If you move the throttle blades, the IAC will move to it's new position accordingly.

A few notes on idle.

1) It doesn't make much of a difference where the TPS sits- it ca sit at 3% or 17%. Wherever it ends up, adjust the "max TPS for idle" to 1 or 2 over where it actually sits when the throttle is closed.

2) If you find the car dying when you shift into gear, you might try what I did- set the idle setscrew (on the throttle body) so that the idle is higher than the software setting, then when you drop it into gear the RPM will drop to the idle setting. For example my idle is set at 700, but the setscrew holds it at about 800- when it drops into gear the engine drops to about 680 - 700 and the IAC doesn't have to react very much. Some people like to have the idle speed in or out of gear, you can set this however you like.

3) If the idle surges, chances are you are either a) lean or b) running too much timing.

4) To get the best starting, look at where your IAC is for idle at the various temperatures, then set your IAC to go to that position accordingly. For example if your engine idles with the IAC at 35 when the temp is 120 degrees, then the cranking IAC position at 120 should also be 35. Then play with your cranking pulsewidth until you get a clean start every time.

Congrats on getting it to run! Enjoy!

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

 

[Chyke]

I'm glad you got it running. Hopefully you can get all the bugs worked out.

1. It does matter where your TPS is set. Due to the number of cells in the tables, some set-up may not be able to take advantage of the full range or in some situations, are not capable of achieving the full range. Two things to remember with TPS. It should be set close to 12% at idle and it must exceed 80% at full throttle. The ECu is designed to go into flood start mode while cranking with the TPS over 80%.

2. If your car dies when you shift it in to gear, do not set the idle screw higher to correct his(unless it is possitively set wrong to begin with) You may need to ajust several different items.
-idle timing trim
-the D gain
-the P gain
the target idle speed.
Think about what I'm saying, here is a system with a functioning IAC, why would you not set the parameters correctly so it can do it's job.

Try setting your P gain at 35 and your D at 15. Once your TPS is set, set your max for Idle 1 or 2 point higher.

Than take a look at your base cells and ajust for idle and AF ratio.

Next work on tip in.

 

[bobc455]

"Chyke"-

Could you please explain why you like the TPS to be set around 12%? You are the first that I've ever heard to advocate such a setting. What do you mean "take advantage of the full range" - full range of what? The MAP and RPM can travel anywhere on the tables regardless of TPS position. Or are you operating in Alpha-N mode (in which case having more range of TPS from idle to WOT would give you more resolution, but no more "range")?

From what I understand, the TPS only affects "AE vs. TPS" and clear flood mode, and the ECU will handle any idle setting as long as you have set the "max TPS for idle" set appropriately.

What I described was my own setup for the idle setscrew, and I've found this works well for everyone that's tried it. Because the IAC does not react instantaneously, setting the idle screw in this manner prevents the motor RPM from dipping too far down when you drop it into gear- since in the scenario I describe the IAC doesn't have to react at all (or very little), the motor just settles quickly to it's new speed without waiting for the IAC to react. You can also set the system up as you describe so the IAC does all the work, however if your car idles at a low RPM (mine idles at 700 in gear and has a tight convertor) then you don't have a lot of cushion before the engine speed drops too low and dies when you shift into gear. If you have a high idle speed like on many race motors (900+ RPM) and a loose convertor then you have more of a cushion and your method may work as well. Of course the P and D settings still have to be tuned in either case- in my case when the engine is cold and I drop it into gear, the motor is still relying heavily on the IAC and I have to prevent the engine RPMs from dipping too far.

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

 

[Chyke]

It's amazing what can be found on line. Goto the FAST website and read the instructions. It specifically states to set the TPS as close to 12% at idle and over 80% at full throttle. This was the first time I'd heard this. Coming from FAST i tried it. Seems to make a differernce, but that's another story since you've never heard of this. First read than try, But than again that's just my set up.

 

[bobc455]

Chyke,

Sorry but I couldn't find it.

All I could find were the following-

"The TPS reading at an idle should be relatively low, and should increase as you open the throttle."

and

"The "Maximum TPS for Idle" field is used to set the threshold where the ECU no longer considers the engine to be idling. It is recommended to observe the TPS reading at an idle and setting this field to that number plus one. In other words, if your TPS reads 10% at an idle, set this value to 11. When the TPS percentage exceeds the value specified in this field, the IAC motor will be "locked" into the position specified in the throttle follower graph, and the Timing Trim graph will not be used. "

From this information that I did find, it doesn't seem like they are advocating a setting of 12%. Can you put up a direct link to the page that you found? If there is such a recommendation, I am anxious to read more about it!

Thanks,

-Bob Cunningham
bobc@gnttype.org

(apologies for the duplication of any copyrighted material! I promise that I'm not profiting from it!)

 

[Chyke]

Oh My Bad, Try Here it's an existent recomendation..

http://www.fuelairspark.com/Downloads/Software/FAST_installation_manual.pdf


In case the link doesn't work, go to the fast web site, choose, installation manual, and goto page 7 of 8.

Quoted from Fuel Air and Spark's Web Site.

Once the computer is connected and on-line, press the F9 key to display the dashboard. You
should be able to read the following dashboard parameters with the engine not running and the
key in the ON position:
• The TPS should be at approximately 12% at idle and over 80% at wide open throttle
(WOT).
• The MAP sensor should read approximately 100 kPa.
• The air and coolant temperature sensors should read the approximate outside
temperature.
• An RPM signal should be present when cranking the vehicle. If you do not see an RPM
change when cranking the vehicle, refer to the paragraphs below on setting the ignition
and crankshaft reference angle.
• Battery voltage should be 13-14 VDC.

I also am not profitting from this information. All credit goes to Fuel Air and Spark. 2002.

P.S. If your gonna be a smart ass, than be a smart ass, don't talk around the subject Mr. Know it all, sorry for having a different view, and god help the person who doesn't share your limited understanding of the world. Trust me on this one it has nothing to do with the FAST system, you are truley close minded and ignorant. Now, on with happier things....

 

[Craig Smith]

OK Guys...

There was a version of this manual written about two years ago that did specifically state that the TPS should read app. 12%. That seemed OK to write that way at the time. However, there is no special reason that it should be at 12% rather than, say, 20%. We just picked a number typical of what we see and went with it.

I apologize if the earlier version of the manual seems to contradict current documentation or if it is confusing in any way. I will contact the site administrator and make sure that there are no hyperlinks to "dated" information.

As Bob stated, the TPS is used for AE fueling and for "telling" the ECU when the engine is to be considered idling. Widening or narrowing the operating range of the TPS should have no impact on how a FAST-equipped vehicle runs in speed-density mode.

Chyke, you obviously have a decent amount of experience with these systems and I think it's great that you are willing to share your experience with other users. You were even credited with being a big help by the starter of this thread. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to assist other FAST users.

For what my opinion is worth to you, Bob is one of the sharpest FAST tuners on this board. "Closed-minded" and "ignorant" are about the last two words I would use to describe him. Just as you were credited here with being a help, Bob has been credited with helping dozens, if not hundreds, of times here. We all just relate what we know here. You two just happened to read two versions of the same document, and that's my fault.

Thanks again for helping out here.

 

[Chyke]

POINT TAKEN.