Nitrous

[Razor]

Jim,
How big of a turbo where you using to attain the 562 rwhp?

Was it a stock turbo? My guess would be a TE63?

 

[BillyRValentine]

Jim,
How big of a turbo where you using to attain the 562 rwhp?

Was it a stock turbo? My guess would be a TE63?

That was a very good guess, or you have been talking to Rob Hinson. LOL!!! It was a TE-63-1 from Jack. I was using an alcohol solenoid and at the time there was no data on how to jet it so I had to play it by calculation and O2 readings. I would love to see you incorporate it into your system as I feel that it would be a great benefit to an already wonderful system. My system used an old alcohol pump and tank run to an alcohol solenoid and then into the fuel side of the fogger nozzle plumped into the up-pipe. It had the solenoids mounted on the up-pipe with a bracket. It was obviously homemade but at the time no one was interested in producing such a system and I didn't have the contacts to proceed forward on my own. I am sure that your system would be much better looking and most likely perform better if it were progressive. I integrated a Hobbs switch into it for a fuel safety shutoff. I used a button to activate it but believe that with a system such as yours with the proper amount of research that something similar to the FJO controller would be the stuff!!! It would allow the user to dial in not only how they want the system to hit (Switch activated, TPS, RPM, time based, etc.) but would also allow for them to make it as progressive or flat as they wanted. The potential for a second stage is also there, not that it would be needed but you never know, some people love living on the edge.

Jim C.

 

[Alky V6]

Now you guys are talking my language!!! I've been prodding you guys for years about this nitrous stuff. It's good to see that maybe you guys might get us caught up to what the imports have been doing for years now. RUQWKNF's post is BRILLIANT. Everyone should go back and read it very carefully. Exhaust back pressure is the key to making turbo/nitrous work. I'm running a T76 with a 200 shot for spool up only. The fact that I'm running alcohol with my nitrous system bumps the HP level down. Still it's quite enough to spool the T76 to 16 psi in four tenths of a second. That is with a .96 AR turbine housing and a small displacement engine (235 CID). The key to making nitrous work for a full run pass is going to be properly matching turbine housing AR and wastegate capacity and control. You must think out of the box when you're picking the turbine AR ratio and wastgate(s) size. Without the proper sizing, you will have uncontrollable boost. Just ask me how I know. The turbine housing will become the bottle neck. You will overspeed the turbo beyond the capacity of the wastegate and things will start to break. In my case, by mid-track. Also, you must setup your spark plug style and heat range as per nitrous needs. Or, your turbo will ingest massive amounts of porcelain. Again, ask me how I know this. At the time that I did test leaving the nitrous on the whole run, I was running a T70. I now have a T76, thanks to the porcelain encounter the T70 had. I also had an ATR wastegate and a .81 AR housing. The ground electrodes on the spark plugs were not cut back. They were however regular nosed. By mid-track, BIG POP. Start out with small shots and carefully adjust your tune as you work up. I would consider a 200 HP shot to be a max for our V6s.

One final note. The damn thing pulled like a bat out of HELL!

 

[Razor]

Guess if the turbo were to be selected to sustain the HP.. the rest is tuning using the gas to your advantage. Simply dont try a 500 shot on a stock turbo.

Jim, my car runs alky+nos through a meth compatible solenoid. I use the FAST WB correction to help me dial in the meth fuel jet portion. Relatively simple since I get the computer to run a pass with no correction, then I switch the nitrous on and watch how much correction is being made.. simply add enough fuel jet so no correction is being made. I started wiring a 250 PSI pressure transducer to data log alky pressure on my nitrous alky jet pressure.. but thats not happening for another 30 days.

Ohh.. almost forgot.. Jim.. I guess good sometimes

 

[Alky V6]

Actually, you pick a turbo to sustain 'a' horsepower, not 'the' horsepower.

For instance, you pick a turbo that sustains a max of 500 HP efficiently. You then add a nitrous system that supports 200 HP. You have a total of 700 HP from the two systems. The turbo does not have to support 700 HP. The extra oxygen is coming from the nitrous. The extra oxygen is not having to go through the compressor of the turbo. It is being added in after the turbo. The turbine housing is a different matter. You are now expelling a combined exhaust energy of 700 HP! Either the turbine housing or the wastegate or both must be sized to handle and control the combined exhaust energy to avoid overspeeding the turbo and overboosting, causing engine and/or turbo damage.

 

[Razor]

But would it be simpler to buy a 76 GTQ with lets say an .85 housing and use nitrous to get you from point a 600 to point be 800 since this turbo will support that level of HP?

So instead of running 35 PSI, you can now run 23 PSI + nitrous and make up the HP with the nitrous instead of boost. Having the larger housing and exhuast wheels ie Q and .85 already rated to support the higher HP.. should handle the issue.

 

[BillyRValentine]

But would it be simpler to buy a 76 GTQ with lets say an .85 housing and use nitrous to get you from point a 600 to point be 800 since this turbo will support that level of HP?

So instead of running 35 PSI, you can now run 23 PSI + nitrous and make up the HP with the nitrous instead of boost. Having the larger housing and exhuast wheels ie Q and .85 already rated to support the higher HP.. should handle the issue.

Yes Julio, this method of thought will work fine. I didn't just use it on my GN but also on a 306-SBF with a Cartech Outlaw kit that I had in a Mustang a few years back. (I will also be using it with a turbo LS-1 project in the not too distant future not to mention a current customers car that is running an F-2 Procharger.) Without the gas the car needed the transbrake to get the turbo spooling for launch. With the gas and foot braking the thing would cut just as good a 60-ft time. Using the two together for that combo resulted in wrinkled quarter panels, a damaged oil pan and radiator. To be honest with you I didn't do too much theoretical figuring when I did this stuff with the Mustang, I just did it slowly and paid attention to the FAST logs. Now I did find this out, when setting the motor up for a turbo only pass at 23-lbs, it would run 9.80's@roughly 138-139 MPH. I would set it up for the same 23-lbs but by doing so with the boost set at 17-lbs and then spraying it with a 100-shot it would hit 23-24lbs but run 9.20-9.30's but @150-mph. I didn't have a way to measure MAT's or the like but by hypothesis I figured that the increase in power was due to the cooling properties of the nitrous in relation to the heated air of the turbo. I always knew that N2O was a great intercooler but never realized to what extent until I did a little experimenting. I will say this though, one must be VERY careful in using large amounts of gas on LC-2 motors as the sudden increase in cylinder pressure can wreak havoc on main and rod bearings. The more progressive the shot the easier I have found it to be on parts. I could go on regarding this issue forever but to be honest am just too d*mn lazy to type it all out. I will however be glad to answer any questions that anyone needs answers to with the limited knowledge stored in my noodle.

Jim C.

 

[BillyRValentine]

Guess if the turbo were to be selected to sustain the HP.. the rest is tuning using the gas to your advantage. Simply dont try a 500 shot on a stock turbo.

Jim, my car runs alky+nos through a meth compatible solenoid. I use the FAST WB correction to help me dial in the meth fuel jet portion. Relatively simple since I get the computer to run a pass with no correction, then I switch the nitrous on and watch how much correction is being made.. simply add enough fuel jet so no correction is being made. I started wiring a 250 PSI pressure transducer to data log alky pressure on my nitrous alky jet pressure.. but thats not happening for another 30 days.

Isn't data logging and "fuzzy logic" a wonderful thing. I love the fact that DFI's are now able to make corrections on the fly within given perameters. I am waiting on the next big thing to hit them which I believe will be the ability to simply dial in the AFR desired and the PCM take over in an "automatic" mode with the use of a wide band O2 obviously. It is in a few now but I believe that it will become more serious within the next few years. Another thing I hope to see is DFI's become Windows or Linux based so that one could use a flip out DVD type stereo with USB ports to hook up a portable keyboard and mouse too. I realize this would be for more street cars and as such is probably not too far up on any of the DFI makers list but I can always wish. H*ll, I can watch DVD's on them and play an XBOX so I want to be able to tune my DFI on them too, hehe. Here I go off into left field wishful thinking again and that is for another thread.

Ohh.. almost forgot.. Jim.. I guess good sometimes

Yes sir, I would say you do.

Jim C.

 

[Adam Connell]

So... what about us small turbo guys... Honestly I would not mind adding a **SMALL** 25-30 shot of nitrous for off the line use... my 60fts are maxed out from just not enough power and I can only hold 10lbs off the ft brake. I think i could hold more but it takes so long to get to 10lbs that I worry about holding it longer(3-5 seconds with my stock D5). I would really like to just spray off the line through the 60ft. Do you think my stock ECM could handle a SMALL shot for spooling and off the line usage? I will be purchasing a 3in DP and a Razor kit, but after that I have little or no plans for upping the power unless I can use nitrous off the line.

So a small wet shot maybe or not a good idea for my setup?

 

[BillyRValentine]

So... what about us small turbo guys... Honestly I would not mind adding a **SMALL** 25-30 shot of nitrous for off the line use... my 60fts are maxed out from just not enough power and I can only hold 10lbs off the ft brake. I think i could hold more but it takes so long to get to 10lbs that I worry about holding it longer(3-5 seconds with my stock D5). I would really like to just spray off the line through the 60ft. Do you think my stock ECM could handle a SMALL shot for spooling and off the line usage? I will be purchasing a 3in DP and a Razor kit, but after that I have little or no plans for upping the power unless I can use nitrous off the line.

So a small wet shot maybe or not a good idea for my setup?

Ahh, a fellow weirdo. I am doing that EXACT same thing with my latest build up. Sure you can use a small shot off the line. Do this install a small wet shot nozzle into the up pipe pretty close to the TB (For what you are doing and the amount you are using this will work better as compared to placing it further away to soften the shot which I usually recommend with larger shots.). Make sure to use a Hobbs switch if you are only using it for the launch so that it will break the ground when you get the desired boost level you want. Having said that I think that you are going to find that the turbo is no where near maxed out yet once the N20 is added. You would be suprised at the gain a small amount of N2O is going to give your car.

I have ALWAYS had big turbos, yadda, yadda, yadda. I want one now that has a smaller turbo and quicker spool-up characteristics on the street. Now I am building one with the following setup - Stock ported heads, 212@.050 Comp hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, 42.5's, MaxEffort chip, Craig TE-62 turbo, Vigilante, Cottons stock mount intercooler (Thanks for the bracket Jack-O!!!) and a 3-in DP. Progressive USABLE torque I believe it going to be the key to this combo for some quick times. I may even drop the gear to a 3.23 just to see what happens, it may work it may not. Hope this helps and Happy New Year!!!

Jim C.

 

[Adam Connell]

Ahh, a fellow weirdo. I am doing that EXACT same thing with my latest build up. Sure you can use a small shot off the line. Do this install a small wet shot nozzle into the up pipe pretty close to the TB (For what you are doing and the amount you are using this will work better as compared to placing it further away to soften the shot which I usually recommend with larger shots.). Make sure to use a Hobbs switch if you are only using it for the launch so that it will break the ground when you get the desired boost level you want. Having said that I think that you are going to find that the turbo is no where near maxed out yet once the N20 is added. You would be suprised at the gain a small amount of N2O is going to give your car.

I have ALWAYS had big turbos, yadda, yadda, yadda. I want one now that has a smaller turbo and quicker spool-up characteristics on the street. Now I am building one with the following setup - Stock ported heads, 212@.050 Comp hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, 42.5's, MaxEffort chip, Craig TE-62 turbo, Vigilante, Cottons stock mount intercooler (Thanks for the bracket Jack-O!!!) and a 3-in DP. Progressive USABLE torque I believe it going to be the key to this combo for some quick times. I may even drop the gear to a 3.23 just to see what happens, it may work it may not. Hope this helps and Happy New Year!!!

Jim C.

Hmmm so would there be a kit out there for this setup? sounds like we have the same idea... this car is a street killer that sometimes has to go from a roll... these cars are terrible from a roll, but only because the spoolup is so slow. I dont want some record setting car, and I dont want some huge HP gain I just want a .1 off my 60ft... thats where the kick in the pants feeling is anyways!

 

[Alky V6]

So... what about us small turbo guys... Honestly I would not mind adding a **SMALL** 25-30 shot of nitrous for off the line use... my 60fts are maxed out from just not enough power and I can only hold 10lbs off the ft brake. I think i could hold more but it takes so long to get to 10lbs that I worry about holding it longer(3-5 seconds with my stock D5). I would really like to just spray off the line through the 60ft. Do you think my stock ECM could handle a SMALL shot for spooling and off the line usage? I will be purchasing a 3in DP and a Razor kit, but after that I have little or no plans for upping the power unless I can use nitrous off the line.

So a small wet shot maybe or not a good idea for my setup?

Imagine this. You have a relatively large turbo for street use. Not necessarily a monster turbo, just one that is large enough to be a hard spooler. The first thing everyone wants to do next is get a looser torque converter. Instead of doing that just stick with your 3200 stall T/C. If you want, put a 400 in with the taller first gear. Who cares. The nitrous will take care of everything. You pull to the staging lights. Prestage and bring the engine up to 2200 rpm. Creep into the stage light and wait for the first amber to come down. Don't concern yourself with having to spool up the turbo or being on the T/C too long. Just sit pretty at 2200 rpm. The first yellow lights up. Stab the gas pedal as the other ambers come down and release the brake when you need to for a proper reation time. At the point of releasing the brake, your rpm should be at around 3000 or 3200. Setup your nitrous system to activate at this point. No more having to sit there winding up your turbo, causing horrible reaction times, and watching your competition taking off before you because you haven't reached that magic boost number yet. Once you've tried it, you won't go back.

 

[BillyRValentine]

Hmmm so would there be a kit out there for this setup? sounds like we have the same idea... this car is a street killer that sometimes has to go from a roll... these cars are terrible from a roll, but only because the spoolup is so slow. I dont want some record setting car, and I dont want some huge HP gain I just want a .1 off my 60ft... thats where the kick in the pants feeling is anyways!

There sure is, as a matter of fact if you want me to build you one of my up pipes let me know. I can even sell you the entire kit although you could put one together yourself a little cheaper. It is a design that I ripped off from NOS several years ago. I can post a pic of it should you like. You need a fogger nozzle, powershot (or similar) solenoids and two braided fuel lines (One from the fuel rail to the solenoid and one from the solenoid to the nozzle.) and a braided line from the N2O solenoid to the nozzle. Then it just a matter of the line, bottle, brackets, Hobbs switch, button, relays, bottle warmer; etc.

Jim C.

PS-It would be tonight before I could post it though.

 

[bison]

So it all seems to lead back to the first post i said about the exhaust pressure. That and the ignition are the limitations with the N2O, providing the engine can handle it. You could run a very small compressor if you had the big ex wheel and big a/r. I think a lot of guys would choke of the .85 Q housing quick these days unless the engine only had 500 hp without the N2O. What we would need for most is a GTQ with a smallish 60-62 comp wheel and an even bigger a/r than .85 to really maximize the use of the N2O if you really are hard pressed on running a 3 bolt. I planned on throwing a small 25-30 shot on my car in the spring. Ill report back then.

 

[BillyRValentine]

So it all seems to lead back to the first post i said about the exhaust pressure. That and the ignition are the limitations with the N2O, providing the engine can handle it. You could run a very small compressor if you had the big ex wheel and big a/r. I think a lot of guys would choke of the .85 Q housing quick these days unless the engine only had 500 hp without the N2O. What we would need for most is a GTQ with a smallish 60-62 comp wheel and an even bigger a/r than .85 to really maximize the use of the N2O if you really are hard pressed on running a 3 bolt. I planned on throwing a small 25-30 shot on my car in the spring. Ill report back then.

Yes and no. From what I have found you aren't really going to experience any issue in regards to backpressure until you got to a VERY large shot and then it I believe one would have to be spraying the entire length of the 1/4 mile. Now please keep in mind that this is not to say that performance could not be optimized with the turbo combo you suggested. One way to find out for sure. The bump in torque is where you are really going to notice it.

Jim C.

 

[bison]

Yes and no. From what I have found you aren't really going to experience any issue in regards to backpressure until you got to a VERY large shot and then it I believe one would have to be spraying the entire length of the 1/4 mile. Now please keep in mind that this is not to say that performance could not be optimized with the turbo combo you suggested. One way to find out for sure. The bump in torque is where you are really going to notice it.

Jim C.

I dont think it would take a large shot if you were nearing the limit for the exhaust side of the turbo. Any reduction in the exhaust pressure in the manifolds between the turbo and engine will yield more power. Like DonWG said your compressor requirement doesnt change but your exhausting whatever hp your had without the N2O and what you have for a N2O shot. This will cuase an increase in pressure. Theres a lot to be gained with more ex. a/r and N2O with minimal spool problems compared to a non N2O application.

 

[TTA850]

I keep seeing people say to turn the boost down because it will go up when spraying, is this with an open loop, closed loop, or any boost controller? I run an Innovative MSBC-1/Pro-Gate combo and am under the impression that being a closed loop system, assuming the wastegate is large enough, it will keep the boost where it's set to be - nitrous or not. Does that sound right?

Steve

 

[Alky V6]

I keep seeing people say to turn the boost down because it will go up when spraying, is this with an open loop, closed loop, or any boost controller? I run an Innovative MSBC-1/Pro-Gate combo and am under the impression that being a closed loop system, assuming the wastegate is large enough, it will keep the boost where it's set to be - nitrous or not. Does that sound right?

Steve

You're correct. As you stated, assuming the wastegate is large enough. After my experience I shopped for the largest d**n wastegate I could find. And I'm still not sure it's big enough to handle the 200 shot for the full run. Really, if your going to run big nitrous for the whole run, you have to treat the wastegate system as a second main exhaust system. The wastegate should be large and the piping for the wastegate should also be large and divorced from the other main exhaust system.

 

[BillyRValentine]

I dont think it would take a large shot if you were nearing the limit for the exhaust side of the turbo. Any reduction in the exhaust pressure in the manifolds between the turbo and engine will yield more power. Like DonWG said your compressor requirement doesnt change but your exhausting whatever hp your had without the N2O and what you have for a N2O shot. This will cuase an increase in pressure. Theres a lot to be gained with more ex. a/r and N2O with minimal spool problems compared to a non N2O application.

Didn't seem to hurt either of mine any but what do I know? It is my belief that one would most likely damage the turbo or get a head gasket before then. I don't give a whole lot of thought to theoretical physics as I tend to lean more toward the applied side. Makes no matter to me, to each their own and people should always do what works best for them. Take care and Happy New Year!!!

Jim C.

PS-I agree with Don regarding the wastegate issue in relation to as large a shot as he is running. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[BillyRValentine]

N2O up-pipe pics.

Jim C.