non-progressive

[next_level]

i know it's old tech, the money is better spent saving for progressive, ect, ect. other than that, is there anything really WRONG with a non prgressive system, i mean it had to have worked for a while before progressive controlers, so what are the bad things

 

[Bob Avellar]

Nothing wrong that I can think of. Works for me.

 

[PhilM]

If you run alky on the street and have a large boost range with high power, you will experience a BOG when it first turns on and before the turbo spools up. This is more prevalent on the street really, where you don't (normally ) load the vehicle prior to launch. At the track, BOG is less noticeable since if you have a decent boost controller, the boost of the car is set to make max power for the traction avail which means it is more or less constant.

All in all there is no disadvatage with the exception of a little power gain with a progressive kit. It is also easier to tune some of the controlled kits on the market making nozzle replacements and setscrew turnings equate to simple in-cabin knob rotations.

Phil

 

[Bob Avellar]

Mine is a 2 stage so-no bog or part throttle issues. I suppose it is a tick above a "Nonprogressive". :wink:

 

[PhilM]

no bog or part throttle issues

what is " part throttle " ?

 

[Quiky One]

what is " part throttle " ?

ummm less than WOT. 1/3 to 2/3. Is that what you're asking?

 

[Razor]

One big difference is with a DIY... is your on your own. You can follow the countless recipes out over the internet... and the countless tuning tips.. then when you get to the tuning pitfalls/issues.. all of this will become clear.

What works for someone may not work for someone else, and this is the issue you may/may not encounter.

And the deal is not just the controller/electronics.. its everything else. Like the pump, its placement, hose selection, nozzle sizing, pressure setting for both activation and pump pressure, fittings, electrical, wiring, etc All which are critical for proper system operation.

Good luck with your decision..

 

[PhilM]

ummm less than WOT. 1/3 to 2/3. Is that what you're asking?

Yea, it was a pretty lame joke... sorry i need alcohol or 2 days of courierfont to be funny.

 

[next_level]

more or less it's a runnin low on cash thing, non progressive used kits are popping up fairly cheap....im not gonna try and max out my combo right now, i want it more for a bit of insurance really....well, plus i'd like to run around 25 psi on the street...ill build something else and try and squeeze every last bit of power out of it, for now i just want a fast daily driver...

 

[Bob Avellar]

The DIY ones are obviously more work as far as gathering appropriate parts and installing everything but not all of the manufactured kits are progressive either. A controller would make any tuning adjustments more convenient but I'm sure there is enough help around to get almost anything dialed in for a modest application like you are attempting I think all you gotta do is ask. Of course, unless you're dealing with an alky kit manufacturer that is always there to answer your tuning and install questions you might not have the help you need at the drop of a hat. :smile:
My buddy is having one of Razor's kits installed soon and I'm anxious to see how it performs on his car. I'm sure he will have a big smile on his face when he is finally able to crank up the boost. :biggrin:

 

[Razor]

plus i'd like to run around 25 psi on the street ...

Your statement above needs planning, attention, and money. And "more or less it's a runnin low on cash thing" is not a good recipe to be racing an engine.

If you cannot afford to break it.. dont mod or race it. Mistakes are costly. And the more you try and cheapen things.. the faster the mistakes will happen.

Throwing a lot of boost through a motor is serious.. and very easy to blow your motor up if your tuneup is not there.

 

[next_level]

im pretty confident the motor is up to running 25 psi as long as it's in good tune....of course i wouldnt try running that much with a bad tune or anything...if it breaks it breaks that's nothing new to me, im just tryin to move to another project, basicly wanna direct my money somehwere else...the GN has gone past what i wanted to do with it, and not that i regret it, but my truck needs rears, if i can spend 300-400 dollars less on a alky kit and get the basicly same results, that's the route im taking

 

[OKBuickTurbo]

im pretty confident the motor is up to running 25 psi as long as it's in good tune....of course i wouldnt try running that much with a bad tune or anything...if it breaks it breaks that's nothing new to me, im just tryin to move to another project, basicly wanna direct my money somehwere else...the GN has gone past what i wanted to do with it, and not that i regret it, but my truck needs rears, if i can spend 300-400 dollars less on a alky kit and get the basicly same results, that's the route im taking

With all due respect .... this path of thinking is so frickin wrong... your willing to risk a $2500 motor just to save a couple hundred bucks. My honest advice is to sell the car while its still running and then move on to your other project. It sounds to me like your gonna end up blowing a motor in a car you may have lost interest in. Sell it and move on if you don't want to do it right.

I do agree that a progressive system is probably not required for the track. The car will reach your set boost amount relatively quick and stay there. Not much progressive going on.... That being said...

Razors kit has been tested and PERFECTED by Razor himself..... not his customers as have some vendors... He has blown up the parts and learned what works and what doesn't ..... so you don't have too. He has added features that can possibly save your motor if something goes wrong. Sounds like what you plan to do is throw a kit together and play hit and miss at 25psi at the track with no knowledge of what your doing, hoping you don't blow it up. Not a good plan as most end up doing damage.

You do at least have direct scan I hope.

The makers of the old fuel pump style kits never intended for the kits to be used at that level your talking so don't think of going there. As Razor has proven the pump is not up to it. Razors already made you a road map that will save you tons of time and most likely money. Read through his posts on this board if you don't believe me. Razor started out with an old SMC kit and has done it all.


The fastest alcohol guys are running Razors kit..... What does that tell you? No use reinventing the wheel. If you can't afford his kit right now then I would play it safe and wait till you can. Hope this helps. Good luck with your car.

 

[PhilM]

No harm trying it for yourself if you want... A hobbs switch, a pump, and a few lines. You dont like it or want more tech support then buy a kit. That's if you didn't already break a rod or crank. Either way, be sure to know how to properly tune it before letting it rip - but that's with or without alky.

Phil

 

[next_level]

first off.... i love my car....the fact that i wanna spend money on another project shouldnt require me selling my car....i wanna be able to run a decent amount of boost when i want to...., if i can do it with a non progressive kit and save the money, that's what makes more sense for me, if i was racing he car every weekend, i would wait till i had the cash for the progressive kit, but that not the case. people ran non progressive kits fairly successfully it seems, i dont see what the problem is, im not looking to squeeze every bit of power out of my car...at this point.....im looking to get a decent daily driver, a truck to beat on, and food in my sons mouth...oh and diapers...if running an "old-tech" system is gonna help that with hurting me...im goin for it...

Phil M-
i thought about pieceing a kit together i figured for still less than a new progressive kit, i could do a DIY'er with 2 stages, cause i got a lot of bradied line laying around and i think i have a decent pump somewhere...


To All- im not some dumbass that has no mechanical ability or knowledge tryin to half ass my way into the 11's no matter what the harm to my car....
i am fairly compentent, i can get a baseline tune on my car, i may not have the techinical alky/turbo know how like Razor, or Phil or his brother, but i can keep a piston from blowing through my hood....this post was me tryin to get the negative's on the older kits....not why i should run a progressive, or why i should sell my car

 

[justabuickv6]

I installed my DIY kit using a combination of parts. All the brass from McMaster-Carr and the pump from Northern Tools. Mostly ideas taken from Steve Monroe's alky kit. You can do a Google search on his name.

I went from a 13.65 (16lbs of boost) to a 12.50 (21lbs of boost) with the DIY kit (non-progressive). Now, that i've been tuning for several years, I am in the mid 11's now.

I didn't have a problem at all tuning with it.

I would like to get the PAC from Julio. I just haven't had the extra 180 or so for it. I have heard it is a great piece.

The long block is all stock with 105k miles.

 

[Razor]

Sounds like a plan... Go for it.. let us know how it turns out

Good luck with the pump

 

[OKBuickTurbo]

I went from a 13.65 (16lbs of boost) to a 12.50 (21lbs of boost) with the DIY kit (non-progressive). Now, that i've been tuning for several years, I am in the mid 11's now.

and then...

I didn't have a problem at all tuning with it.

I think the 180 bux would have been worth the several years tuning.


You are one of the fastest I know of though with a diy kit. Good work. Goes to show it can be done.....

 

[justabuickv6]

I've only touched the pump (Shurflo) and the rest of the alky kit maybe three times in two years. All the tuning was playing with timing, boost, etc.

I don't make it to the track that often so it takes awhile to get it dialed in.

 

[vacuum 6]

More or less I had a DIY kit on my car for 8 years with zero issues. Finally upgraded to Julio's kit, I like it a lot it has more flexibility.