strikeeagle
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- Jun 6, 2001
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OK, let's say you tune your car so you're running 780 on O2s on gas alone. Now, you install an alky kit. What happens to your O2s???
O2s???
- Thread starter strikeeagle
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If no changes are made to boost/timing/fueling, they will go up since alky is a fuel.
Its an anti-detonation agent. if your not pinging.. it wont do a thing for you.
Now lets say your O2 are 780 and the KR is at 10 degrees.. shoot alky and cleans it rite up to zero.
Makes sense?
Not nitrous.
Its an anti-detonation agent. if your not pinging.. it wont do a thing for you.
Now lets say your O2 are 780 and the KR is at 10 degrees.. shoot alky and cleans it rite up to zero.
Makes sense?
Not nitrous.
Will allow you to run leaner, but will make the AFR drop and O2's climb.. leaving everything as is.
So if it runs 780 and you shoot it with alcohol, the 02's will rise. How much depends on how much alcohol.
It will on some cars make a little more torque leaving boost levels and timing the same.
So if it runs 780 and you shoot it with alcohol, the 02's will rise. How much depends on how much alcohol.
It will on some cars make a little more torque leaving boost levels and timing the same.
Cool. I thought that maybe the extra oxygen in the alky would give "false" O2 sensor voltages in the exhaust stream. But, it sounds like I dont need to worry about it.
When you guys say 780's for O2 voltages, I assume that means 780 mV? Goodness gracious...my car wouldnt last long at all with that type of reading!
At 780 mV, what is the approximate and generalized EGT and wideband A/F on Buicks?
On my Dodge, if I see 840 mV, my EGT is nearing 1900 F. (I do realize that the hotter the EGT, the lower the O2 voltage for a given actual A/F).
I will be trying to keep O2 voltages at 900 mV or higher on my car with the alky kit and that should make EGTs stay under 1600 F (maybe less depending on the cooling effects of the methanol).
Ive found a direct correlation between EGTs and time between valve jobs
When you guys say 780's for O2 voltages, I assume that means 780 mV? Goodness gracious...my car wouldnt last long at all with that type of reading!
At 780 mV, what is the approximate and generalized EGT and wideband A/F on Buicks?
On my Dodge, if I see 840 mV, my EGT is nearing 1900 F. (I do realize that the hotter the EGT, the lower the O2 voltage for a given actual A/F).
I will be trying to keep O2 voltages at 900 mV or higher on my car with the alky kit and that should make EGTs stay under 1600 F (maybe less depending on the cooling effects of the methanol).
Ive found a direct correlation between EGTs and time between valve jobs
Heres a follow up question.......
Lets say one runs straight methanol in this alky injection kit (as I plan to do).
Well, stoichiometric for methanol is 6.5:1 (as opposed to 14.7:1 for gasoline).
Also, methanol is about 50% by weight oxygen. So, it is bringing a heap of oxygen into the process as well.
Now...my theory is this......
If one is spraying a decent amount of methanol in along with the gasoline, that you can actually run the car in an indicated LEANER condition (as read on a wideband) than one would think.
I believe that if, while on the dyno for instance, you tune the car (without methanol) to 12.0:1 air fuel and find that the car makes the best safe power there and then tune the car so that gasoline is removed and methanol is added until the A/F is once again the same, the car will in reality be too rich and you will see a power deficit. More power would be found by leaning the car to an indicated higher A/F ratio even though methanol burns stoichiometrically at 6.5:1. I believe this would be true due to the oxygen content in the methanol as the oxygen has to go somewhere.
What are the flaws in this reasoning? Anyone found that they have lost power if they overspray the methanol, yet the indicated air fuel ratio didnt change?
Lets say one runs straight methanol in this alky injection kit (as I plan to do).
Well, stoichiometric for methanol is 6.5:1 (as opposed to 14.7:1 for gasoline).
Also, methanol is about 50% by weight oxygen. So, it is bringing a heap of oxygen into the process as well.
Now...my theory is this......
If one is spraying a decent amount of methanol in along with the gasoline, that you can actually run the car in an indicated LEANER condition (as read on a wideband) than one would think.
I believe that if, while on the dyno for instance, you tune the car (without methanol) to 12.0:1 air fuel and find that the car makes the best safe power there and then tune the car so that gasoline is removed and methanol is added until the A/F is once again the same, the car will in reality be too rich and you will see a power deficit. More power would be found by leaning the car to an indicated higher A/F ratio even though methanol burns stoichiometrically at 6.5:1. I believe this would be true due to the oxygen content in the methanol as the oxygen has to go somewhere.
What are the flaws in this reasoning? Anyone found that they have lost power if they overspray the methanol, yet the indicated air fuel ratio didnt change?
Yes there comes a time when you reach diminishing returns. I mean you cannot replace 100 % of the fuel. Tho power can be made at 30%.
The Test on Cal's car proved that whereby his FAST kept the AFR at 12.0 but increasing the methanol made the motor lose HP. There is a point whereby you try and overly saturate the air and the power drops of big time.
If you spray just enough to keep the motor from detonating.. typically this will be where the most power can be had. But if you just crank on the pressure trying to tune it out.. wont make as much power.
As to the mentioned test on Cal Hartlines car without an IC and just using methanol,.. i'll hopefully find some time this weekend to assemble the data in a way that the lay person can understand.
Not always we can get this type of data. Or someone wanting to risk damage to theyre motors.. 26 PSI NO IC.. 175 IAT.. 670 RWHP
Cheers
PS> Larry tonite I ran 11.49 at 22 PSI really conservative..18 degrees, pump gas + alky.
The Test on Cal's car proved that whereby his FAST kept the AFR at 12.0 but increasing the methanol made the motor lose HP. There is a point whereby you try and overly saturate the air and the power drops of big time.
If you spray just enough to keep the motor from detonating.. typically this will be where the most power can be had. But if you just crank on the pressure trying to tune it out.. wont make as much power.
As to the mentioned test on Cal Hartlines car without an IC and just using methanol,.. i'll hopefully find some time this weekend to assemble the data in a way that the lay person can understand.
Not always we can get this type of data. Or someone wanting to risk damage to theyre motors.. 26 PSI NO IC.. 175 IAT.. 670 RWHP
Cheers
PS> Larry tonite I ran 11.49 at 22 PSI really conservative..18 degrees, pump gas + alky.
Might that be due to the fact that the car was running alot richer than a "normal" 12:1 A/F with all the extra methanol seeing as how the methanol carries all the extra oxygen into the equation? Maybe thats why the A/F still read 12:1?
Sounds to me like an hour or so on a good loading type dyno will be money well spent on my car! I think Ill plan on that once I get everything installed and ready to roll.
I am also thinking about doing something about my IC. I dont think I am going to go IC'less like the car you mentioned, but mine is showing way too much pressure drop. I see 6 psi or so up top and that is ridiculous. But, I really cant figure out why as this IC is three stock Dodge cores in parallel and is rather large. With one core and at the 300 whp level, I was seeing 7 psi drop. So, three cores and 400-425 whp giving almost the same pressure drop just doesnt stir the KoolAid.
Sweet! Sounds like youll soon be surpassing your personal best.ite I ran 11.49 at 22 PSI really conservative..18 degrees, pump gas + alky.
Do you have a cage in the car?
Originally posted by Razor
PS> Larry tonite I ran 11.49 at 22 PSI really conservative..18 degrees, pump gas + alky.
I am not sure how the 3.8 responds, but my 2.2 would take 18 degrees at 22 psi on straight pump gas. My ECU will give about 20-21 degrees advance at 22 psi boost and I will usually just stay out of KR like that on pump gas. It will sometimes flash a tiny bit of KR on shifts. So, its borderline.
Problem is....my timing curve is fixed (I have DIS ignition). So, the timing I get is the timing I get. I can only add boost and adjust fuel (short of using the adjustable MAP diode I have installed, but that will also trim fuel at the same time obviously).
With my ECU, at 30 psi boost, I will end up with about 17-18 degrees advance. Does that sound similar to how a Buick on alky might run?
Ohh yeah.. I mean the numbers on my sig were hail mary's kinda. I mean my run at Sunshine was at 27-28 PSI hence the 98 MPH. But last night at really mild boost.. its looking promising finally. It went 94.7
Heres the slip
1.649
4.770
7.373
94.72
9.614
11.491
117.20
At 22 PSI peak.
Cage is one of those pending decisions
I did have to wear a firejacket and pants 
after my first pass at 18 PSI netted an 11.83 @ 113.03.IHRA track.. ya start getting the evil eye at 11.99.. then the speach at 11.49. So when my first run was an 11.83.. the said..put pants on and the jacket..
When I did the 11.49.. guy says better put a cage in that thing..I said I dont know why it went so fast.. dont worry..wont happen again
When I did the 11.49.. guy says better put a cage in that thing..I said I dont know why it went so fast.. dont worry..wont happen again
HellOnWheels
HellOnWheels
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2002
- Messages
- 1,012
Originally posted by Razor
Ohh yeah.. I mean the numbers on my sig were hail mary's kinda. I mean my run at Sunshine was at 27-28 PSI hence the 98 MPH. But last night at really mild boost.. its looking promising finally. It went 94.7
Heres the slip
1.649
4.770
7.373
94.72
9.614
11.491
117.20
At 22 PSI peak.
Cage is one of those pending decisions
Razor,
What were the timing numbers at the 22 psi peak?
HOW
I have a Greddy profec b boost controller that records peak boost. So I could have been at 20 PSI through the traps.. just that I wasnt looking at the guage going down the track.. So I really didnt look at the guage going down the track. Too busy looking at the tub'd Falcon in the other lane that was getting spanked. He ran an 11.736.
I run an ME-r, its fixed at 18 degrees. Its a new turbo, new TQ, new tires, new front mount IC, new ME-r, new boost controller, new a lot of things... and its really hard to do this stuff on the street, practically impossible here. So i'm just starting to get some seat time with the combo. Next time out i'll leave the boost alone and start using the spark translator to bump the timing up/down.. and play with the fueling.
I may just drop some C16 latter part of the year and run the alky on top of that and really squeeze it. Dunno yet.. pretty fun to drive in, run a mid 11, drive out with virtually no tuning.
I still have my sway bar on, car full of stuff, and really need a diet
get this, i'm on thumbwheel position 7 out of 16 possible on my 50lb injectors... ways to go. If not for the alky, probably be at TW 12.
I run an ME-r, its fixed at 18 degrees. Its a new turbo, new TQ, new tires, new front mount IC, new ME-r, new boost controller, new a lot of things... and its really hard to do this stuff on the street, practically impossible here. So i'm just starting to get some seat time with the combo. Next time out i'll leave the boost alone and start using the spark translator to bump the timing up/down.. and play with the fueling.
I may just drop some C16 latter part of the year and run the alky on top of that and really squeeze it. Dunno yet.. pretty fun to drive in, run a mid 11, drive out with virtually no tuning.
I still have my sway bar on, car full of stuff, and really need a diet
get this, i'm on thumbwheel position 7 out of 16 possible on my 50lb injectors... ways to go. If not for the alky, probably be at TW 12.
