Maybe to you and some other people, but to a good number of folks they're getting tired of the stadium expendatures and collosal wastes of money involved with *pro* teams. The money they generate for the surrounding communities are for hot dog vendors, and parking lot owners, yet entire cities are taxed for what?, being able to say the GRAOAN SQUID throwing team lives here.
OK, I've had it, (rant ahead)
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Maybe to you and some other people, but to a good number of folks they're getting tired of the stadium expendatures and collosal wastes of money involved with *pro* teams. The money they generate for the surrounding communities are for hot dog vendors, and parking lot owners, yet entire cities are taxed for what?, being able to say the GRAOAN SQUID throwing team lives here.
Yeah, tell me about it. The Chicago Bears play here in my home town (Champaign), and every time theres a game everything goes up in price. Hotels, gas, etc. Can't get a table at a decent dining establishment, can't drive anywhere because a bunch of drunken morons are clogging up the roadways, our town is not big enough to support all these visitors, yet we are "lucky" to have them here? I fail to see what it does for anyone who actually lives here except hotel owners and stuff. Plus, the bears suck. (I know I'll hear it for that! I like 'em as much as the next guy, but they have a tendency to never win.)
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AsphaltAnihil8r
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Sam ,I'm a bad man,,2 unions at the same time....
I think you missed my point, which is that the team makes money in the millions and so the player is legitimately entitled to a chunk of that money. I agree that the team itself might not necessarily benefit the surrounding community, but the player earns his pay by putting asses in seats.
I agree that the player is entitled to his share, but we need to realize that by paying atheletes more than damn near anyone we give todays children unrealistic expectations and false hopes. Every kid wants to be an athelete or musician because of the insane wages. I don't think many of todays atheletes are good role models. Kids put them on a pedestal, like they are frickin' Mother Theresa. Many of them are crooks, savages, drug abusers, not to mention dumb as a bag of hammers. We allow kids to idolize the wrong people. But I suppose thats bad parenting more than anything.
Union - absolutely
Don't delude yourselves into thinking that the cost of labor is so enormous to these companies who have ran off to Mexico. Most companies have an overhead expenditure for labor of less than 10% of the TOTAL overhead (cost to operate). I'll give you an example.
I am the Chairman of my Union (PACE Local 5-626), representing about 125 workers at a large chemical refining complex owned by the 2nd largest oil company in the world - British Petroleum. BP's labor cost is less than 3% of their total overhead to operate this plant. LESS THAN 3%!!!! But guess what they want to cut everytime a contract comes up? You guessed it - the cost of labor.
Our jobs are highly technical and require extensive training. There is a 9 month probationary period once a person is hired here. The starting pay for a new hire is ~$16 per hour, going up to ~$23 per hour once trained and qualified with a maximum rate of pay of ~$30 per hour.
Now, our Company earned nearly $100,000,000 in profit ALONE last year. But guess what - all you hear is how much it costs to pay the employees. Well, you know what?
If not for the UNION, we would all be working for barely more than minimum wage. Why? Because nothing and NO ONE would be able to force the Company to pay the rate they do which is comparable to other Chemical plants of this type across the U.S.
So, I don't care how much ranting and raving you may do - you're entitled to your opinion. But you need to dig deep and find the real reason companies leave the U.S. They want you to believe it's the high cost of labor - it isn't. It's only so they can make an even HIGHER rate of profit. Also, the environmental standards are much more lax and even non-existant so they save money that way by polluting the air, land and water and getting away with it. Doesn't that bother you?
Here's an obscene fact - Some companies have now pulled out of Mexico (where they paid an average of less than $3.00 per hour) to send the work to India where they could hire someone for a third of that!
And here's another fact - many of the companies are reconsidering coming back to the U.S. due to the substandard quality and work ethic of the foreign workforce.
Do you know that Ford Corporate makes over $10,000 PROFIT for every Excursion they sell? GM, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler - they are in the business to make money. Nothing wrong with profit folks.
But I don't hear anyone here bitching about Ford making a millions and millions in profit. When does it stop? Why couldn't they be happy with $5000 per vehicle profit and give the workers better benefits? Or, reduce the friggin price for cripes sake!
But no - you want to piss and moan about the UAW. Well, the UAW and the Steel Workers, and the Teamsters are what made our wages and working conditions as good as they are. Period!!!
Why do you think the Wal-Marts, and Honda's of the world do not want Unions? Because they would make a few dollars less per car, per bar of soap if they paid the worker more. I find that highly offensive when the corporate employees pull in gross incomes, all taken from the efforts of the worker, non-union or Union.
So I get steamed under my collar when the ignorant rant and rave about Union workers being the cause for Companies leaving the U.S. - it's not the worker, it's for the Damned dollar.
Don't delude yourselves into thinking that the cost of labor is so enormous to these companies who have ran off to Mexico. Most companies have an overhead expenditure for labor of less than 10% of the TOTAL overhead (cost to operate). I'll give you an example.
I am the Chairman of my Union (PACE Local 5-626), representing about 125 workers at a large chemical refining complex owned by the 2nd largest oil company in the world - British Petroleum. BP's labor cost is less than 3% of their total overhead to operate this plant. LESS THAN 3%!!!! But guess what they want to cut everytime a contract comes up? You guessed it - the cost of labor.
Our jobs are highly technical and require extensive training. There is a 9 month probationary period once a person is hired here. The starting pay for a new hire is ~$16 per hour, going up to ~$23 per hour once trained and qualified with a maximum rate of pay of ~$30 per hour.
Now, our Company earned nearly $100,000,000 in profit ALONE last year. But guess what - all you hear is how much it costs to pay the employees. Well, you know what?
If not for the UNION, we would all be working for barely more than minimum wage. Why? Because nothing and NO ONE would be able to force the Company to pay the rate they do which is comparable to other Chemical plants of this type across the U.S.
So, I don't care how much ranting and raving you may do - you're entitled to your opinion. But you need to dig deep and find the real reason companies leave the U.S. They want you to believe it's the high cost of labor - it isn't. It's only so they can make an even HIGHER rate of profit. Also, the environmental standards are much more lax and even non-existant so they save money that way by polluting the air, land and water and getting away with it. Doesn't that bother you?
Here's an obscene fact - Some companies have now pulled out of Mexico (where they paid an average of less than $3.00 per hour) to send the work to India where they could hire someone for a third of that!
And here's another fact - many of the companies are reconsidering coming back to the U.S. due to the substandard quality and work ethic of the foreign workforce.
Do you know that Ford Corporate makes over $10,000 PROFIT for every Excursion they sell? GM, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler - they are in the business to make money. Nothing wrong with profit folks.
But I don't hear anyone here bitching about Ford making a millions and millions in profit. When does it stop? Why couldn't they be happy with $5000 per vehicle profit and give the workers better benefits? Or, reduce the friggin price for cripes sake!
But no - you want to piss and moan about the UAW. Well, the UAW and the Steel Workers, and the Teamsters are what made our wages and working conditions as good as they are. Period!!!
Why do you think the Wal-Marts, and Honda's of the world do not want Unions? Because they would make a few dollars less per car, per bar of soap if they paid the worker more. I find that highly offensive when the corporate employees pull in gross incomes, all taken from the efforts of the worker, non-union or Union.
So I get steamed under my collar when the ignorant rant and rave about Union workers being the cause for Companies leaving the U.S. - it's not the worker, it's for the Damned dollar.
Nepotism? Protecting bad workers? Look deeper...
One of the complaints listed about Unions is that they protect the ineffecient and lazy worker. Another complaint was nepotism and hiring favorites.
Well guess what? You're more wrong than you are right.
While every worker is afforded equal process regarding disciplinary actions if a Union Worker, this can and often does protect a worker who would be fired on the spot for his laziness or other source of infraction. But you're forgetting that in a non-union shop, the manager/owner can and WILL fire, layoff, and hire who he damn well wants because there is NO contract telling him to do things the right way.
A Union contract can prevent Joe Manager from coming in, firing John because Joe Manager's nephew Timmy wants a job and Joe Manager wants Timmy to take John's place. And, a Union prevents Joe Manager from coming in and firing Fred because he doesn't like the way Fred combed his hair that morning. In a non-Union shop, John and Fred would be history. It happens.
Yes, a Union is not perfect - why? Because it's made up of the most fallable species on the planet - Human Beings. But here's another flash for ya - management is ALSO made up of Human Beings too and if left unchecked, for the most part those managers will rape and abuse the workers time and again. It happened in the '20's, '30's and '40's and it still goes on today. Greed is overpowering in today's society; power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
A Union contract helps minimize or even negate this type of management corruption - the abuse of the workforce.
Union? Absolutely - and damned proud of it.
One of the complaints listed about Unions is that they protect the ineffecient and lazy worker. Another complaint was nepotism and hiring favorites.
Well guess what? You're more wrong than you are right.
While every worker is afforded equal process regarding disciplinary actions if a Union Worker, this can and often does protect a worker who would be fired on the spot for his laziness or other source of infraction. But you're forgetting that in a non-union shop, the manager/owner can and WILL fire, layoff, and hire who he damn well wants because there is NO contract telling him to do things the right way.
A Union contract can prevent Joe Manager from coming in, firing John because Joe Manager's nephew Timmy wants a job and Joe Manager wants Timmy to take John's place. And, a Union prevents Joe Manager from coming in and firing Fred because he doesn't like the way Fred combed his hair that morning. In a non-Union shop, John and Fred would be history. It happens.
Yes, a Union is not perfect - why? Because it's made up of the most fallable species on the planet - Human Beings. But here's another flash for ya - management is ALSO made up of Human Beings too and if left unchecked, for the most part those managers will rape and abuse the workers time and again. It happened in the '20's, '30's and '40's and it still goes on today. Greed is overpowering in today's society; power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
A Union contract helps minimize or even negate this type of management corruption - the abuse of the workforce.
Union? Absolutely - and damned proud of it.
No ones directly blaming the UAW for jobs leaving the country.
You are looking at it sheerly from an employees point of view. I find that most employees don't really know what kind of work and money it takes to run a business. Look at it from an employers point of view. Most people open their own business to get wealthy, plain and simple. There are other reasons, but money is the main one, its what makes all the headaches worthwhile. if you bust your ass to open and run a successful business, why should you have to give so much to the employees who simply walk in and do what you tell them? They take no risk, no responsibility, and have laws and unions to protect them. The employer has nothing. You are making it sound like all employers should split all their money up evenly with their employees. Thats BS. Theres nothing stopping you from opening your own business if you want. I believe in a fair wage, but I'm sorry, $30 an hour to use an air ratchet on an assembly line is BS. If they can build a robot to do your job, you aren't that intelligent and don't deserve to make a lot of money.
Your argument is that since the employees make the employer so much money they are entitled to some of it. Some, yes. Ford builds those plants, designs the machines to build cars, and pays a lot of overhead. If they make 10 grand on a truck, good for them. Don't like it? Don't buy one.
A job's pay should directly relate to how much training and skill it takes to perform said job. If I design a machine that makes a product which nets me $1,000,000 per item sold, and I need 1 man to push a couple buttons and pull some levers every few minutes, does he deserve half of it? No. He deserves a fair wage, comparable to other jobs which require little to no training. I deserve most of it, for designing a machine of that caliber. On the flip side, If I develope a process which requires an enormous amoutn of intellect and training to perform, a person qualified to perform this process deserves a healthy sum of what it earns. Like doctors. These people will have to spend their own time and money learning a great deal, and should be compensated.
You are looking at it sheerly from an employees point of view. I find that most employees don't really know what kind of work and money it takes to run a business. Look at it from an employers point of view. Most people open their own business to get wealthy, plain and simple. There are other reasons, but money is the main one, its what makes all the headaches worthwhile. if you bust your ass to open and run a successful business, why should you have to give so much to the employees who simply walk in and do what you tell them? They take no risk, no responsibility, and have laws and unions to protect them. The employer has nothing. You are making it sound like all employers should split all their money up evenly with their employees. Thats BS. Theres nothing stopping you from opening your own business if you want. I believe in a fair wage, but I'm sorry, $30 an hour to use an air ratchet on an assembly line is BS. If they can build a robot to do your job, you aren't that intelligent and don't deserve to make a lot of money.
Your argument is that since the employees make the employer so much money they are entitled to some of it. Some, yes. Ford builds those plants, designs the machines to build cars, and pays a lot of overhead. If they make 10 grand on a truck, good for them. Don't like it? Don't buy one.
A job's pay should directly relate to how much training and skill it takes to perform said job. If I design a machine that makes a product which nets me $1,000,000 per item sold, and I need 1 man to push a couple buttons and pull some levers every few minutes, does he deserve half of it? No. He deserves a fair wage, comparable to other jobs which require little to no training. I deserve most of it, for designing a machine of that caliber. On the flip side, If I develope a process which requires an enormous amoutn of intellect and training to perform, a person qualified to perform this process deserves a healthy sum of what it earns. Like doctors. These people will have to spend their own time and money learning a great deal, and should be compensated.
Re: Nepotism? Protecting bad workers? Look deeper...
The union must be different where you are. Around here, nepotism reigns supreme. I know pure morons in my feild who have a job ONLY because they knew the right person.
Yeah, a non union employer can fire and hire who he wants. Its America. If he chooses to hire based on nepotism, he will not be successful anyway. People who hire based on performance will be more successful. It works both ways too. If you are a union employer, you CAN'T get rid of a so-so employee for a better one either. You are stuck with his dumb ass.
I will never expect a union employee to see the faults of his own system. If I was making way more than I deserved for my job I'd be all about it too. Like I'm going to shoot myself in the foot!
The union must be different where you are. Around here, nepotism reigns supreme. I know pure morons in my feild who have a job ONLY because they knew the right person.
Yeah, a non union employer can fire and hire who he wants. Its America. If he chooses to hire based on nepotism, he will not be successful anyway. People who hire based on performance will be more successful. It works both ways too. If you are a union employer, you CAN'T get rid of a so-so employee for a better one either. You are stuck with his dumb ass.
I will never expect a union employee to see the faults of his own system. If I was making way more than I deserved for my job I'd be all about it too. Like I'm going to shoot myself in the foot!
Sam, I respect your opinion but man, are you way off base about how Unions work and how management works. Let me see if I understand you.
In a perfect world, Company/Manager "A" would hire the best and brightest workers he could, fire only for just cause, pay a fair and adequate wage based solely on how much physical labor he performs, and all would be well with everyone. If the worker only pushes two buttons per hour on a million dollar machine that nets the company gross profits then the worker would be paid minimum wage. And, the worker who picks up pallets, tosses boxes, and does more physical work would be paid more, even though the machine operator has to know how to operate the machine, what tolerances to meet, how to set up and make changes on the machine, etc. After all, he is working his ass off; the machine operator is only pushing buttons. Either worker would never have to worry if he (or she) was going to be replaced as long as everything works fine and Company/Manager "A" makes an enormous profit and pays little if any benefits.
Of course, in your scenario, Company/Manager "A" would be entitled to pay what he thought was due the employee, give out benefits (such as vacation, sick time, number of work hours in a week, overtime, 401k, pension, etc) as he saw fit and to whom he saw fit, and the employee should be glad for what he gets because, after all, he's just an employee. Meanwhile, Company/Manager "A" reaps millions and millions in profits year after year, ignores labor laws, and can (and will) reward his friends and buddies, hire and fire as he sees fit, and discipline depending upon how his mood may be or whether he likes the guy or gal. Heck, he could even let the woman go who becomes pregnant or the guy who gets a long term illness because that just costs the company even more money.
Ok, even IF my appraisal of your perfect world is too far fetched for you, lets try this one. Suppose Company/Manager "A" has a great business for a long time. He's fair, treats everyone equally, and pays according to the value of the employee as well as to a reasonable scale for that type of labor. But, suppose that hard times fall upon the Company? Manager "A" decides that well, even though all the workers are doing a great job, he will keep the ones who he has been closest with or maybe even just those who are on his bowling league, or only the men, or only the caucasians. Far fetched? Not at all. It happens.
Why, he could even lay off the older guys who are getting close enough to retire and take their pension. You know - just close enough to retirement that they probably won't get another job but far enough away that the Company doesn't have to worry about the worker(s) drawing on the pension fund. It happens folks.
Or, the manager could simply decide that where before he had 5 people on a crew doing a set of tasks that he will cut that to 3 people, keeping the ones he likes (not letting go the last hired) and forcing those 3 to do the work that previously 5 people did. It happens.
In a Union shop, disciplinary action is defined. Layoffs occur by seniority. Wages and working conditions are negotiated and set in the contract. Benefits are defined and paid accordingly, not according to how the manager would like to make his own personal evaluation look. Workers are (as a rule) treated fairly because they know the rules that THEY have to abide by and what the COMPANY must abide by. There is no guessing, no management by personality, no gray areas. When a company can prove that they are on hard times, Unions can AND DO renegotiate to make the company competitive.
If you were to read the Union and Company trade magazines, you would see that far more new companies become unionized than those whose employees choose to drop from a Union's membership. This says a LOT.
Will Unions ever be perfect? Not as long as they are made up of people, who are as imperfect as anything. Will management ever be perfect? No - for the same reasons that Unions will never be perfect.
But will a Union ever be unnecessary? Only when management decides to treat every employee as if they belonged to a Union, in the good times and in the bad. Until then, there will ALWAYS be a need for a Union.
In a perfect world, Company/Manager "A" would hire the best and brightest workers he could, fire only for just cause, pay a fair and adequate wage based solely on how much physical labor he performs, and all would be well with everyone. If the worker only pushes two buttons per hour on a million dollar machine that nets the company gross profits then the worker would be paid minimum wage. And, the worker who picks up pallets, tosses boxes, and does more physical work would be paid more, even though the machine operator has to know how to operate the machine, what tolerances to meet, how to set up and make changes on the machine, etc. After all, he is working his ass off; the machine operator is only pushing buttons. Either worker would never have to worry if he (or she) was going to be replaced as long as everything works fine and Company/Manager "A" makes an enormous profit and pays little if any benefits.
Of course, in your scenario, Company/Manager "A" would be entitled to pay what he thought was due the employee, give out benefits (such as vacation, sick time, number of work hours in a week, overtime, 401k, pension, etc) as he saw fit and to whom he saw fit, and the employee should be glad for what he gets because, after all, he's just an employee. Meanwhile, Company/Manager "A" reaps millions and millions in profits year after year, ignores labor laws, and can (and will) reward his friends and buddies, hire and fire as he sees fit, and discipline depending upon how his mood may be or whether he likes the guy or gal. Heck, he could even let the woman go who becomes pregnant or the guy who gets a long term illness because that just costs the company even more money.
Ok, even IF my appraisal of your perfect world is too far fetched for you, lets try this one. Suppose Company/Manager "A" has a great business for a long time. He's fair, treats everyone equally, and pays according to the value of the employee as well as to a reasonable scale for that type of labor. But, suppose that hard times fall upon the Company? Manager "A" decides that well, even though all the workers are doing a great job, he will keep the ones who he has been closest with or maybe even just those who are on his bowling league, or only the men, or only the caucasians. Far fetched? Not at all. It happens.
Why, he could even lay off the older guys who are getting close enough to retire and take their pension. You know - just close enough to retirement that they probably won't get another job but far enough away that the Company doesn't have to worry about the worker(s) drawing on the pension fund. It happens folks.
Or, the manager could simply decide that where before he had 5 people on a crew doing a set of tasks that he will cut that to 3 people, keeping the ones he likes (not letting go the last hired) and forcing those 3 to do the work that previously 5 people did. It happens.
In a Union shop, disciplinary action is defined. Layoffs occur by seniority. Wages and working conditions are negotiated and set in the contract. Benefits are defined and paid accordingly, not according to how the manager would like to make his own personal evaluation look. Workers are (as a rule) treated fairly because they know the rules that THEY have to abide by and what the COMPANY must abide by. There is no guessing, no management by personality, no gray areas. When a company can prove that they are on hard times, Unions can AND DO renegotiate to make the company competitive.
If you were to read the Union and Company trade magazines, you would see that far more new companies become unionized than those whose employees choose to drop from a Union's membership. This says a LOT.
Will Unions ever be perfect? Not as long as they are made up of people, who are as imperfect as anything. Will management ever be perfect? No - for the same reasons that Unions will never be perfect.
But will a Union ever be unnecessary? Only when management decides to treat every employee as if they belonged to a Union, in the good times and in the bad. Until then, there will ALWAYS be a need for a Union.
John Larkin
Sublime Master of Turbology
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Good points Raven. Well thought out and well spoken.
I want to add a few thoughts. I understand the terminate prior to pension eligibility issue. I too see it's potential. However, this is why folks need to use their brains in their careers and plan ahead. Have a 401K, save cash, don't procreate yourself into the poor house if you can't afford it, don't spend everything you make on a house/boat/toy, live within your means with a little leftover especially as you approach your twilight years.
Just plan for the worst and you'll end up getting the best. It's not a bad thing to live responsibly even though you might not be in vogue with your peers.
I want to add a few thoughts. I understand the terminate prior to pension eligibility issue. I too see it's potential. However, this is why folks need to use their brains in their careers and plan ahead. Have a 401K, save cash, don't procreate yourself into the poor house if you can't afford it, don't spend everything you make on a house/boat/toy, live within your means with a little leftover especially as you approach your twilight years.
Just plan for the worst and you'll end up getting the best. It's not a bad thing to live responsibly even though you might not be in vogue with your peers.
Jesus dude, did you get seriously fu*ked over at a previous job or what?? You act like as long as its a non union shop, there will be a great deal of injustice for the employees. Around here, damn near all the union jobs are exactly as you described the non union shops. Bowling buddies, relatives, etc. get the upper hand. Any company run correctly, be it non union or union, will have basically the same rules set forth, for both the companies benefit and the employees. If it becomes neccessary for me to lay some people off, I go by seniority. Wages are discussed and negotiated between management and the employee. Everyone gets treated fairly. Thats not just union policy, thats just good business. You act as though if an employer is non union, they are screwing the employees over. Let me tell you, I've had union guys leave and work for me because of the bullsh!t politics of the union. Like I said, maybe its different for you. I can only speak on what I've actually seen.
Like I said before, any company that bases its staff on personal relationships is not going to be very successful anyway. Most good companies have a policy and rule handbook and most policies are very similar to union ones, i.e., benefits, vacation (which the union doesn't give, btw), raises, etc.
Also you completely neglect to mention that all states have labor laws, to protect employees. Employers can't just do whatever they want, there are actual laws outside of the union circle.
As far as my example of the employee pushing buttons and stuff, he would not make more than the guy stacking pallets or whatever. Both are mindless physical labor jobs.
What I find interesting is that you seem to think the union never has any of the problems like you mentioned that non union shops do, people getting screwed by whatever means. It happens with the union shops here more than any other. My best friend is a union pipefitter. The company he worked for went under. You know what he got? Not a damn thing. Not even a warning. Thats poor practice, no matter what. I would never do that. Guys gotta be able to feed their families. All those bad things happen in union and NON UNION business'. Just because the company is union don't mean squat, at least here.
Example: I went to trade school for my profession. I graduated TOP of my class, I flat smoked everyone. In my class was a guy from my town. He almost got kicked out for missing class, was always stoned or drunk, almost smart enough to tie his shoes, and just plain irresponsible. He even tried to fight me one day in school. Normally I'd stomp him to death, but my school had a very strict no fighting policy, and I wasn't about to get kicked out for beating this idiot. This guy was a loser in every sense. He now makes almost double what I do in his union job. How is that possible when I was offered $8 an hour to start there? easy: His brother was the manager. They give him screw off work to do so he won't seriously screw up. The companies with the bad raps around here are union. But, like I said, maybe yours is different. I hope so.
Like I said before, any company that bases its staff on personal relationships is not going to be very successful anyway. Most good companies have a policy and rule handbook and most policies are very similar to union ones, i.e., benefits, vacation (which the union doesn't give, btw), raises, etc.
Also you completely neglect to mention that all states have labor laws, to protect employees. Employers can't just do whatever they want, there are actual laws outside of the union circle.
As far as my example of the employee pushing buttons and stuff, he would not make more than the guy stacking pallets or whatever. Both are mindless physical labor jobs.
What I find interesting is that you seem to think the union never has any of the problems like you mentioned that non union shops do, people getting screwed by whatever means. It happens with the union shops here more than any other. My best friend is a union pipefitter. The company he worked for went under. You know what he got? Not a damn thing. Not even a warning. Thats poor practice, no matter what. I would never do that. Guys gotta be able to feed their families. All those bad things happen in union and NON UNION business'. Just because the company is union don't mean squat, at least here.
Example: I went to trade school for my profession. I graduated TOP of my class, I flat smoked everyone. In my class was a guy from my town. He almost got kicked out for missing class, was always stoned or drunk, almost smart enough to tie his shoes, and just plain irresponsible. He even tried to fight me one day in school. Normally I'd stomp him to death, but my school had a very strict no fighting policy, and I wasn't about to get kicked out for beating this idiot. This guy was a loser in every sense. He now makes almost double what I do in his union job. How is that possible when I was offered $8 an hour to start there? easy: His brother was the manager. They give him screw off work to do so he won't seriously screw up. The companies with the bad raps around here are union. But, like I said, maybe yours is different. I hope so.
Point - counterpoint
Sam - no, I've never been screwed over by an employer - I've either always worked for myself or worked in a Union Shop. Sorry to hear that your experiences have been contrary to mine but that's life.
May I ask how old you are? I'm 50 and have seen a lot in those 50 years. My father was also pro-union and while I'm not the zealot he is, I do know that that the working man's world is much better today because of Unions.
Perhaps the trade unions are different - my only experience has been with large Unions involved with large industry so I've not had experience with say, the Laborers, or Carpenters, etc. Perhaps those are ripe with the problems you described but I seriously doubt if it's that way everywhere.
In manufacturing and heavy industry, Union strength is needed as a deterrent. There are very few non-union industries with Honda being an exception to the rule. However, I can assure you that the only reason Honda offers the pay and benefits they do is to prevent their employees from Unionizing. Honda's management knows all to well that unhappy employees know that their only strength is in numbers and that means to unionize. So in a way, even the non-union employee at Honda enjoys what he does ONLY because of Unions.
As zealous as I may sound to you about being pro-union, I must say you seem even moreso in regards to what is easily construed as a hatred for them. That is unfortunate and ill founded. What you dislike is actually not the true union concept; rather, it is a dislike of human greed and corruption, facets I have no tolerance for either, be it a Union person or management. So on that common ground I believe you and I find agreement.
Remember - a Union office being abused is only abused by the person in office, not by the Union concept.
Good luck.
Sam - no, I've never been screwed over by an employer - I've either always worked for myself or worked in a Union Shop. Sorry to hear that your experiences have been contrary to mine but that's life.
May I ask how old you are? I'm 50 and have seen a lot in those 50 years. My father was also pro-union and while I'm not the zealot he is, I do know that that the working man's world is much better today because of Unions.
Perhaps the trade unions are different - my only experience has been with large Unions involved with large industry so I've not had experience with say, the Laborers, or Carpenters, etc. Perhaps those are ripe with the problems you described but I seriously doubt if it's that way everywhere.
In manufacturing and heavy industry, Union strength is needed as a deterrent. There are very few non-union industries with Honda being an exception to the rule. However, I can assure you that the only reason Honda offers the pay and benefits they do is to prevent their employees from Unionizing. Honda's management knows all to well that unhappy employees know that their only strength is in numbers and that means to unionize. So in a way, even the non-union employee at Honda enjoys what he does ONLY because of Unions.
As zealous as I may sound to you about being pro-union, I must say you seem even moreso in regards to what is easily construed as a hatred for them. That is unfortunate and ill founded. What you dislike is actually not the true union concept; rather, it is a dislike of human greed and corruption, facets I have no tolerance for either, be it a Union person or management. So on that common ground I believe you and I find agreement.
Remember - a Union office being abused is only abused by the person in office, not by the Union concept.
Good luck.
Thats exactly my point, that no matter if a shop is union or not, the people in charge will determine the manner in which it is run. So many people will say that the union rules will not allow them to do the "wrong" thing, but it happens all the time. I will say, I only have experience dealing with labor unions, like pipefitters, tinners, etc.
As far as my age, well, its going to discredit me somewhat, especially with you older (no offense) members. I am 26, but have been in management for a long time. I work in a feild of primarily older guys, because frankly, this line of work does not appeal to the younger generations. Its hard labor, and that seems to be a big hangup nowadays. I feel I am very responsible for my age, and while usually pretty modest, I like to think I am fairly intelligent given my limited time as an adult. I have been a homeowner for 5 years, owned many vehicles, and have a child on the way. I deal with many older customers who often tell me they are impressed that a person of my age does what I do, and that they are concerned that the rest of the younger people today lack my responsibility and ethics. Most people are suprised when they meet me for the first time after speaking over the pgone or online, they always expect someone older. Fine by me, although it is difficult to "win over" some of the older crowd, but thats life.
I've always said the union was a great thing that has done wonders for anyone working today, but my concern is that it is out of hand. Obviously, we would all be worse off without the union. It was and is a great set of ideas, but wouldn't be neccessary if people would be more ethical, which is not going to happen.
I guess one thing that I am sort of just coming to grips with is how sad a shape people in this country are in. I fear what future leaders will be like. If we even have leaders and aren't taken over by another country. It seems every day I come into contact with more and more people who serve no purpose in life, who can't support themselves, and seem very fertile. I just can't understand them, how one can exist like that. Its something most of you older guys probably have come to terms with and share similar concerns, but thats why they say wisdom comes with age. I often talk about it with my stepdad, who is a professor at a university. I am just dumbfounded with how irresponsible and careless people are now, and when he speaks, I know its something he has known for a long time. He taught public school for many years, and was witness to the offspring these type of people create. Theres no answer, we both just shake our heads and sigh.
As far as my age, well, its going to discredit me somewhat, especially with you older (no offense) members. I am 26, but have been in management for a long time. I work in a feild of primarily older guys, because frankly, this line of work does not appeal to the younger generations. Its hard labor, and that seems to be a big hangup nowadays. I feel I am very responsible for my age, and while usually pretty modest, I like to think I am fairly intelligent given my limited time as an adult. I have been a homeowner for 5 years, owned many vehicles, and have a child on the way. I deal with many older customers who often tell me they are impressed that a person of my age does what I do, and that they are concerned that the rest of the younger people today lack my responsibility and ethics. Most people are suprised when they meet me for the first time after speaking over the pgone or online, they always expect someone older. Fine by me, although it is difficult to "win over" some of the older crowd, but thats life.
I've always said the union was a great thing that has done wonders for anyone working today, but my concern is that it is out of hand. Obviously, we would all be worse off without the union. It was and is a great set of ideas, but wouldn't be neccessary if people would be more ethical, which is not going to happen.
I guess one thing that I am sort of just coming to grips with is how sad a shape people in this country are in. I fear what future leaders will be like. If we even have leaders and aren't taken over by another country. It seems every day I come into contact with more and more people who serve no purpose in life, who can't support themselves, and seem very fertile. I just can't understand them, how one can exist like that. Its something most of you older guys probably have come to terms with and share similar concerns, but thats why they say wisdom comes with age. I often talk about it with my stepdad, who is a professor at a university. I am just dumbfounded with how irresponsible and careless people are now, and when he speaks, I know its something he has known for a long time. He taught public school for many years, and was witness to the offspring these type of people create. Theres no answer, we both just shake our heads and sigh.
Very good and articulate repsonse Sam. I agree with you regarding our mutual concerns - lack of respect of many today (especially from so many of our so-called 'leaders'), a seeming lack of initiative of a lot of even my generation (or an attitude of 'entitlement') as well as yours, and a pervasive "Get rich quick without working" mentality. No one it seems wants to work for anything and they want to blame EVERYONE else for their problems.
These kind of attitudes absolutely disgust me.
Sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders and know what it takes to be successful in this world. You indeed are a rarity for people your age.
This if funny but I think it really applies - there's a guy in my area that drives a fairly new C5 Vette, flame red, all the toys and bells and whistles. His license plate says it all:
"WORK 4IT"
That's the answer for all those lazy, self serving and entitled thinking people - just work for it. Because, like you Sam, I did too and it means a hell of a lot more than if someone had just given it to me.
Good luck.
These kind of attitudes absolutely disgust me.
Sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders and know what it takes to be successful in this world. You indeed are a rarity for people your age.
This if funny but I think it really applies - there's a guy in my area that drives a fairly new C5 Vette, flame red, all the toys and bells and whistles. His license plate says it all:
"WORK 4IT"
That's the answer for all those lazy, self serving and entitled thinking people - just work for it. Because, like you Sam, I did too and it means a hell of a lot more than if someone had just given it to me.
Good luck.
badboy86gn2
"lord be with me"
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2001
- Messages
- 498
Dam Sam
I hope that things appear a little more clear to you and maybe our age (im 25yrs) and personality show what kind of people we are
Johnny
My best advice to you..... Keep absorbing with an open mind and push forward BUT dont blow a gasket
eek: easy to do)
Good Luck
I hope that things appear a little more clear to you and maybe our age (im 25yrs) and personality show what kind of people we are
Johnny
My best advice to you..... Keep absorbing with an open mind and push forward BUT dont blow a gasket
eek: easy to do) Good Luck
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