On center's

[TurboDave]

For those of you running on center blocks, can I get some advice on what type of intake system you're running?
Intake, rails, doghouse, throttle body, etc.

BTW, finally got these Indy blocks in hand. Someone was asking about weight. The all aluminum one weighs 70# (with caps), and the one with the steal sleeves weighs 85#(with caps).
Can't remember for sure, but I think I read somewhere that a stg II iron block weighs in the area of 131# (don't quote me), and that a stock weighs about 112#and Stage I about 129#.

I just re-weighed my stock block and it came in at 127#(without caps)

I'll have to get some pix and post them one of these days. These things are incredibly beefy, even compared to a stage II iron block! It's my understanding that they were originally ordered/built for Scott Brayton (since deceased) and his Indy program.

But I'll be on here a LOT asking (what may at times sound stupid) questions about what parts I'll need to get one going. So be patient with me.

 

[KendallF]

Dave,

Your intake choice will depend on the heads you'll be running. Based on your previous posts, I'll ASSume that you'll have a set of production style heads on it (TA or Champion). With these, your choices will be down to a modified stock intake (runners moved over to compensate for the on-center block's shifted bore), a BGC intake, or a custom sheet metal job.

I don't know anybody who makes a business of modifying the stock intakes..it'd be a pain in the neck. There was a guy advertising loads of BGC intakes a few months ago; you can probably find the posts with a search. The BGC intakes were cast with enough material to be finished for either on or off-center blocks, so if you buy a used one, make sure which it was machined/ported for. If you buy a sheetmetal, you should probably order it now for delivery in 2008.

 

[NJTurbo]

Bill Anderson i heard has done a few stock intakes to fit on-centers. Other than that like Kendall said only a few choices.


CAS!!!!!!!
BG if you can find one
Hogan big $$$
Modified Stock Intake


Good Luck

 

[TurboDave]

Thanks guys.
Kendall, you're probably right. I doubt I'll go with full stage II heads. Custom headers and everything would have to be made up

Maybe I can find somebody that's got an old used on center intake laying around collecting dust

BTW, if anyone's interested I just put an Indy block album in my photo gallery. There's a bunch of pictures of both.
Indy1 is the all aluminum block, and Indy2 is the sleeved block.
I haven't even decided which to build up yet.
The all alumunim block has some advantages. Cylinder bores are already done so I wouldn't have to worry about finding somebody that could machine nik-o-sil.
The oil gallery has the plug holes machined, but not all the way through to the lifter bores yet.
Machine work to complete: Lifter bores and feeds, and lightly surface all surfaces to clean them up, Align hone.
Etc.

The Indy2 (sleeved) block also has some advantages.
Sleeved (stronger??)
Align honing is done.
Machine work to complete:
Cylinders (biggy)
lifter bores and feeds.
Surface all surfaces.
Etc.

 

[KendallF]

Dave,

Interesting pics. I think I'd use the sleeved one. It appears to have a bigger rib on the outside of the block, and the sleeves will almost certainly last better than the Nikasil. I had heard of the lining process but don't know a lot of specifics, so I took a look around online.

Lots of 2 stroke and motorcycle engines use the Nikasil coating, as well as turbocharged Porsche race motors and some BMW motors. BMW had a problem with these in the US due to sulphur in US fuel reacting with the coating, resulting in excessive cylinder wear and leakdown. Here's an article about the problem.

Good luck with the motor; it'll be interesting to see how it does!

 

[Mac in SD]

Dave, I chose S2 heads, 'cause I had them and an S2 on-center manifold. But even if you don't, they can be had pretty cheap. I did a couple of posts a year or two back on the cost-benefit of S2, and, IMHO, when you factor in the cost of new aluminum Champion or now TA heads versus the cost of buying ATR headers and modifying an S2 intake, it's pretty much a "push." (Then again, do you already have a suitable set of headers, or will you be buying new ones for the new motor?)

From all the horror stories (both public and private) regarding the Champions, I'd say they're not an option. (No personal experience with them, mind you, but personal experience can get pricey.) That's mostly why I went with S2 at the time. The TA's sound great, though.

Welcome to the agony and ecstacy of Stage II.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Mac in SD
Dave, I chose S2 heads, 'cause I had them and an S2 on-center manifold. But even if you don't, they can be had pretty cheap. I did a couple of posts a year or two back on the cost-benefit of S2, and, IMHO, when you factor in the cost of new aluminum Champion or now TA heads versus the cost of buying ATR headers and modifying an S2 intake, it's pretty much a "push." (Then again, do you already have a suitable set of headers, or will you be buying new ones for the new motor?)

From all the horror stories (both public and private) regarding the Champions, I'd say they're not an option. (No personal experience with them, mind you, but personal experience can get pricey.) That's mostly why I went with S2 at the time. The TA's sound great, though.

Welcome to the agony and ecstacy of Stage II.

To be honest MAC, I haven't made any decisions on a build up yet. The only reason I've shy'd away from the SII heads is two fold, and maybe both are perceived rather than real.
1. Not very streetable as they don't start making any real power till ya hit 5,000rpm??
2. Need special headers, but you're right, ATR does have them.

 

[Mac in SD]

Originally posted by TurboDave
To be honest MAC, I haven't made any decisions on a build up yet. The only reason I've shy'd away from the SII heads is two fold, and maybe both are perceived rather than real.
1. Not very streetable as they don't start making any real power till ya hit 5,000rpm??
2. Need special headers, but you're right, ATR does have them.

Dave, trust me. They make power WELL below 5,000 RPM. With a T76 Q and an Art Carr 9-inch, if I stomp on it from idle, or at just about any mph up to say, 50, the tires just go away. When I had my 60-1 on it, it was absolutely INSANE on bottom-end torque. Don't buy that 5,000 rpm stuff.

That said, it's just another option to consider. I'm sure you'll make the right choices.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Mac in SD
Dave, trust me. They make power WELL below 5,000 RPM. With a T76 Q and an Art Carr 9-inch, if I stomp on it from idle, or at just about any mph up to say, 50, the tires just go away. When I had my 60-1 on it, it was absolutely INSANE on bottom-end torque. Don't buy that 5,000 rpm stuff.

That said, it's just another option to consider. I'm sure you'll make the right choices.

Thanks, I really appreciate your input! Another viable option

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by KendallF
Dave,

snip

Lots of 2 stroke and motorcycle engines use the Nikasil coating, as well as turbocharged Porsche race motors and some BMW motors. BMW had a problem with these in the US due to sulphur in US fuel reacting with the coating, resulting in excessive cylinder wear and leakdown. Here's an article about the problem.

Good luck with the motor; it'll be interesting to see how it does!

Thanks Kendall!!

I read the article, and if I read right, most of the problems were in Europe. Maybe I mis-read. But I do know that our fuels (especially the last few years) are about the lowest in sulfur in the world.
Europe, not having a care about emissions is very high in sulfer.

I'm still leaning toward building that block. It's SO LIGHT!! That and a pair of stgII aluminum heads and I could easilly shed OVER 110# off the front!

 

[StagedGN]

I'm using a CAS sheetmetal intake for oncenter.M&A's with a Ken Dutt solid roller.I heard that Bill Anderson converts a stock intake to oncenter.I would contact him as this would be a low cost option and prolly faster turn around time then waiting for a sheetmetal one.For your power level I would get a new set of TA's heads.

 

[Mac in SD]

Dave, I forgot to mention that another consideration with S2 heads is to go conservative on the cam. Mine's a 222/218 hydraulic roller. I'm sure that has contributed to the bottom end.
But you know, now that the TA's are available, if I had it to do all over again, aiming for 700-750 HP, I would go with them (the TA's.) Have fun!

 

[S2V6RACER]

And to think I bought my GN-1 R heads 2 years ago and have still not fired the stage II yet. I would definatley go with the TA's at this point, even if 1/2 the complaints I have read are true.

Dave, I guess you need to figure out what kind of driving you are planning. I really don't drive my street 86GN anymore and would someday consider doing a stage II headed motor in that car just for the cool guy reasons. I have talked to enough people and have seen the same input as MAC's on the S2 heads, definatley a good option also, with proven reliability and results.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Ted A.
And to think I bought my GN-1 R heads 2 years ago and have still not fired the stage II yet. I would definatley go with the TA's at this point, even if 1/2 the complaints I have read are true.

Dave, I guess you need to figure out what kind of driving you are planning. I really don't drive my street 86GN anymore and would someday consider doing a stage II headed motor in that car just for the cool guy reasons. I have talked to enough people and have seen the same input as MAC's on the S2 heads, definatley a good option also, with proven reliability and results.

It'll be my 86, and it'll have to do daily driver chores (no smogging here) and still be tollerable.

Wonder how hard it'll be finding a good pair of SII heads, complete and ready to bolt on, without busting the bank?
Problem is, special headers too
Might opt for the T/A's but those are going to be a budget buster. All my assets went to buying these blocks


Now, wanna race? Duramax against Powerstroke

 

[NJTurbo]

Dave,

You can find S2 heads complete very easy. They are all over the place if you post a ad. Try and check e-bay i have seen them on e-bay very often. I sold my complete S2 heads for $600.00 with flow sheet. Just to give you a idea of the cost factor.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by njturbo
Dave,

You can find S2 heads complete very easy. They are all over the place if you post a ad. Try and check e-bay i have seen them on e-bay very often. I sold my complete S2 heads for $600.00 with flow sheet. Just to give you a idea of the cost factor.

Thanks. Maybe my search criteria on Ebay isn't so hot, because I can't find ANY stage II stuff on there, and haven't seen any for several months

Maybe I'll have to do a parts wanted post here on TB.com

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Mac in SD
Dave, trust me. They make power WELL below 5,000 RPM. With a T76 Q and an Art Carr 9-inch, if I stomp on it from idle, or at just about any mph up to say, 50, the tires just go away. When I had my 60-1 on it, it was absolutely INSANE on bottom-end torque. Don't buy that 5,000 rpm stuff.

That said, it's just another option to consider. I'm sure you'll make the right choices.

Agree. Probably because most people using SII heads and saying they don't make power till 5000 are probably running 88 turbo's. If you are going to run it on the street you'll want a smaller turbo. I also have a T-76 turbo and anything under 50 MPH fries the 275 BFG's. Car seems pretty drivable to me 25 miles each way to the track.

 

[Scott231]

Originally posted by TurboDave
<snip>The only reason I've shy'd away from the SII heads is two fold, and maybe both are perceived rather than real.
1. Not very streetable as they don't start making any real power till ya hit 5,000rpm??
<snip>

The "info" I've heard about RPMs and SII heads is that below 2,500 there are not a good head (Lance Ward mentioned that to me eons ago). Ports are SO big that at lower airflow levels, the air "bounces" around the ports rather than the desired smoother airflow.

Of course that is only of importance on the street and with the wide band adjustability of today's computers, that "deterent" is probably nullified.

Just what I heard...

 

[Mac in SD]

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
Agree. Probably because most people using SII heads and saying they don't make power till 5000 are probably running 88 turbo's. If you are going to run it on the street you'll want a smaller turbo. I also have a T-76 turbo and anything under 50 MPH fries the 275 BFG's. Car seems pretty drivable to me 25 miles each way to the track.

Ahhhh. Another hands-on believer. I think it's the cam, too, Art. Everybody who heard about my small cam thought I was nuts...but throw a lot of duration a them, and they will be doggy on the bottom end.

Hey, Scott... who cares about <2500 rpm anyway? We ain't runnin' no stock stall D5's with these things!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Mac in SD
Ahhhh. Another hands-on believer. I think it's the cam, too, Art. Everybody who heard about my small cam thought I was nuts...but throw a lot of duration a them, and they will be doggy on the bottom end.

Hey, Scott... who cares about <2500 rpm anyway? We ain't runnin' no stock stall D5's with these things!

My cam's not exactly small at 650 lift and 248 duration and the heads flow about 320 on the intakes so it's fairly beefy. Oh, did I mention the turbo's a ball bearing.... Sort of forgot that little detail... My 4000 stall converter also doesn't hurt.

You are correct, lots of things come into play. The size of your headers also have something to do with it. Smaller tubes will give more velocity down low.