Pre-turbo W/I !!! What's your take on it ?

[ttawd3s]

Hey guys !!! I don't have a GN, but one of my best friends has one, and I know you guys are the ones that have pushed turbo-tech to what it is today, so I pop up from time to time to ask questions of you.

This time, I'm questioning... Pre-turbo Water/meth injection

Anyone on here know the whole truth ?
What's the proper way to do it ?

Right now, I run a M5 nozzle with a surflo pump and a progressive controller. I'm one of the first five guys to run an 11sec time on the stock SRT4 turbo without nitrous ( 11.94@111mph ). I'm also the only person to do it on the stock clutch and air intake, so I know a bit about tuning etc.

Anyway, back to preturbo injection.
I've been told it will eat compressor wheels.
I've been told it can also effectively move the compressor map to help a small turbo produce a cooler charge at an increased CFM. This is my main interest as the stock turbo is a TD04-15g, super small.

I'm just wondering if any of you guys use it. If you do, what are the cons ? How much can it help ?

Any reliable info you guys can lay on me would be great.

My turbo has been clipped, and ported to maximize its weak ass, but its still not enough. The easy answer is "bigger T3 turbo", but I want to keep the stocker.

My car made 345whp/407TQ before I upgraded the IC on this turbo, so I'm just looking for anything else that can squeeze a bit more out.

Car also has 100shot of nitrous I haven't been able to run it lately due to the clutch slipping.

Thanx for any links or info you can post.

 

[GNguy]

Its great, Ive heard of the compressor wheel being eaten away but I havent seen it yet.....anyways, alky is a great way to lower your intake temps and it makes more power with the alky, id say go for it, love mine, you cant beat 25# of boost on the street, just have a good set of tires :biggrin:

 

[Razor]

You own a vehicle that cant be tuned. So I dont understand how you say your tuning it.

Tuning means having the ability to make changes to timing and injector duty cycle.. there is no "hack" for the Chrysler computer.. that is why you have a stage1/stage2/etc...

AEM released a standalone to allow tuning.. get one of those.. then you can say your tuning

Shoot alcohol before turbo.. Why? Especially with an IC.

Wrong place.. unless you ran a draw through setup. Not blow through.

Too bad on the factory pcm with MAF clamps and piggy backs.. :frown: I would be making kits like crazy

 

[ttawd3s]

You own a vehicle that cant be tuned. So I dont understand how you say your tuning it.

Tuning means having the ability to make changes to timing and injector duty cycle.. there is no "hack" for the Chrysler computer.. that is why you have a stage1/stage2/etc...

AEM released a standalone to allow tuning.. get one of those.. then you can say your tuning

Shoot alcohol before turbo.. Why? Especially with an IC.

Wrong place.. unless you ran a draw through setup. Not blow through.

Too bad on the factory pcm with MAF clamps and piggy backs.. :frown: I would be making kits like crazy

I'll leave the tuning thing alone... Some stock turbo SRT4s run 14's with my mod list, mine runs 11.9, between "tuning" and driving something is happening, and its not a stock car that got the wrong 12/1 compression pistons or anything, hehehe.

I can't directly control the IPW. I can fool the map with the AFC to reduce the fuel. In turn of course, it adds timing, which to a point, is good ( my car gets a little mad after 42degrees of timing advance ). But anyway...

I have Meth injection. It works great to cool IAT temps, and reduce knock. My main interest in it, is to cool the air right after the turbo outlet which makes the air right after the turbo cooler, effectively moving the compressor map. See these cars are very limited by the stock turbo. My grand-mother could slap a 50-trim on a SRT4 and make 400whp. I want 400whp on the TD04 mistu turbo that looks bone stock. I want to run 11.6x on a stock looking car. I mean, the idea here is to get pointers on doing the W/I pre-turbo, not weither my car can be tuned or why I don't just goto a bigger turbo. My W/I system works great right after the 32x12x4 IC, but its more about increasing the compressor output than cooling or knock reduction ( which I'm sure it would be further helpped ).

So... None of the GN guys use pre-turbo injection ? ( I prob. wouldn't either, for you guys its $500 and a 45minute turbo swap to go bigger ).

 

[turbo2nr]

Tonz of us use meth/alky/water, but we all spray it after the turbo and after the intercooler. You don't want the meth to fall out of suspension in the IC now do ya? That would make a nice puddle of meth.

Tractor pullers spray inbetween stages, but they have no ICs usually. Those turbos seem to take it. Even GM made a twin turbo riviera in the 80s with twin meth inj. BEFORE the turbo, but that car also did not have an IC. I had a few pics, but my laptop got stolen recently.

Put the nozzle near the throttle body and be done with it.


Jack Cotton has installed a FAST system on a Neon.
www.cottonsperformance.com
I think it was the first install like that to be done.

Scott

 

[Razor]

No need to change turbo's on a Buick.. fastest stock turbo car is an 11.37 without nitrous. Yes pump gas(92 octane) and alcohol shot before TB.. yes after IC.

Aftermarket ECU is the only way to go.. anything is your lying to yourself..

Piggy backs are trouble.. you pull fuel.. it adds timing

 

[spins4]

I was doing pre-turbo (in addition to post turbo) spray on my car when I had a DSM...didn't see any noticable compressor wheel wear. But I wasn't doing pre-turbo for longer than a 1year (when I sold it). If you get a nozzle that atomizes well, it shouldn't be an issue. For reference this was methanol. The theory is that if you spray the meth pre-turbo, the turbo becomes more efficient beacause it doesn't have to work as hard to compress the air.

 

[WeSS]

?

I was doing pre-turbo (in addition to post turbo) spray on my car when I had a DSM...didn't see any noticable compressor wheel wear. But I wasn't doing pre-turbo for longer than a 1year (when I sold it). If you get a nozzle that atomizes well, it shouldn't be an issue. For reference this was methanol. The theory is that if you spray the meth pre-turbo, the turbo becomes more efficient beacause it doesn't have to work as hard to compress the air.

If the turbo is working so hard to compress the air then what is the other problem? I mean sounds like to much back pressure. Just an idea.

My friend mike had an srt 4. On spray went 12.8@119. Off the spray it went 13.0@108. Tried safc, maf clamps, re doing the vaccum lines, etc. Everything we did to it the dsm ecm had a correction for it. The car on the dyno would break up in 4th gear. Even with c16. So I am sure that even with the higher octane fuel the ecm was still mad at us for modding this car & then it said F you guys I am about to take a dump. Which it did. Standalone or bust

A big difference in adjusting fuel pressure, installing a sealed stage one or two computer versus actually hacking the computer with software & laptop to tune long term, short term fueling, timing, etc. actually making power safely. Notice I said safely

 

[turbofabricator]

I like the way this guy thinks. Why not let him go against the grain and see what happens. If it gets outta control, he'll pop HIS engine, not mine. I use to inject 50/50 INTO the turbo about 15 years ago, I did remove the intercooler at the time though. It had NO negative effect on the compressor. I would run enough ADI (anti-detonate injection) to make the car stop running when I was starting out with the nozzle sizing. Even with enough ADI running through it to shut it off......the compressor lived! The puddling of methanol in the intercooler is probalby not too much of a concern, though. Methanol evaporates pretty rapidly, and in an intercooler that has HOT air pumping through it I don't think it'll stay puddled in there. BUT, what is the corrosive effect of methanol on the thin aluminum fins INSIDE the core? Not sure. If you want to push the envelope of stock parts, then sometimes you have to think unconventional. Keep trying to make something work, learn from what happens and then make changes. If you do things slowly and deliberately, ALOT can be learned, but hopefully it won't go POP! on the path to your goals.
The stand alone approach is definately the way to go, but I also like unconventional thinking, especially if there is some thought process to it, backed up with a working knowlege of your project and experience with tuning parameters. Read up on Smokey Yunick and how he pushed the envelope with turbocharging back in the 60's and 70's.
We can continue to discuss this if you like, But, I think that using a stand alone would be alot more benificial than spending a ton of time and parts on trying to use what you can't effectively adjust. If there is a "box" out there that is known to work, I say step up and really start to go fast. But, then again I really understand why you are doing what you say you are trying to accomplish. You just have to decide if the goal justifies the time and effort? Look at my car.........it really won't be the fastest Turbo Regal out there.......But I built everything myself and I don't have more than $3,000 in parts in it..................BUT there is more fabrication time than most anyone would want to spend on a Buick that could be accomplished with 70mm turbo and GN1 heads, and XFI. But, "I did it MY......WAY......!" I know, I know I sing like crap! :biggrin:

 

[ttawd3s]

Not to be rude, but I wasn't asking about the tune-ability of the car. Its not Optimal, I agree. I also not going to spend $2500 on a stand-alone either...

Razor its great you guys have a stock turbo'd regal running 11.37.
My car is stock from the TB, intake manifold, head, cams, cam gears, pullies, A/C, power steering, clutch, charge pipes, short block, head gasket, valve cover, air intake, and just about everything else. My wife daily drives it.

62# injectors, walbro fuel pump, and drives like stock. I have a mopar S2, which in my car basiclly amounts to the injectors and ECU. Ebay $285 FMIC. clipped/ported stock TD04 turbo, ported exhuast manifold, and aftermarket exhuast. Stock Suspension on 24.5x8.5x15 M&H slicks. Full weight car, not carbon fiber, no fiber glass, no race batteries or anything. From the TB to the oil pan is stock, peroid, so I didn't think 11.94 was too bad in a FWD car ( the car has a lot left in it, I had a wastegate issue at the track that night ).

Again, I wasn't asking about how to tune my car really... With a turbo this small, sometimes adding timing is a GOOD THING with a piggy-back.

I HAVE "AFTER IC, BEFORE THE T/B meth injection" already. I works, its great, its tuned for it. I know meth injection works. I know that for SURE, the W/I lets me run about 8degrees of timing more than without ( peak timing ). It drops the IATs a lot also. On the stock IC, it knocked 55degrees of the IATs. I can see BELOW abundant IATs sometimes now with the big IC.

The compressor map shift is what I'm after. I know after IC, before TB is best, but I'm not working the optimal everything, and I DO ALREADY HAVE normal W/I. I just wanted to ask about pre-turbo W/I experences with wheel wear, and/or problems, but I guess most you guys haven't messed with it. If my turbo was a T3/T4 60-trim stock, I prob. wouldn't either :biggrin:

I've also thought about the meth. eating aluminum, but its doesn't seem to eat intake manifold, so I'm not sure how big of an issue it is.

If I had all the $$$ to go with a stand-alone, I'd be on a bigger turbo already, running 12.3@180mph like the rest of the big turbo SRT4 guys with 430whp... I expect low 11's after the clutch with the nitrous.... Enough to get me kicked off the track in my wifes neon :lol:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/maximum_rip/detail?.dir=ae67re2&.dnm=97f5re2.jpg&.src=ph

I'd love to BS with you guys about my car, but its really not about "my car", its about pre-turbo W/I...

I can B/S with razor anytime, I see him at the track everytime I go. He gets a kick out of beating my pretty close to stock neon with his built motor, stand-alone, big turbo'd, TA I do love his car, b/c I see its FULL leather interoir, its reliabilty, and its damn fast times. I also love the car b/c I know just how rare it is. I know more about GNs, then most non-GN owners by far, and maybe even some GN owner, hahaha. That's why I came here to ask about pre-turbo injection ( only to find the tune-abilty of a car in question ).

My car runs 12.5-12.0 AFRs, peaks at over 40degrees of timing adavance, and runs like stock when not racing. If that's not tuneable, then I'm not sure what is....

 

[WeSS]

haha

Not to be rude, but I wasn't asking about the tune-ability of the car. Its not Optimal, I agree. I also not going to spend $2500 on a stand-alone either...

Razor its great you guys have a stock turbo'd regal running 11.37.
My car is stock from the TB, intake manifold, head, cams, cam gears, pullies, A/C, power steering, clutch, charge pipes, short block, head gasket, valve cover, air intake, and just about everything else. My wife daily drives it.

62# injectors, walbro fuel pump, and drives like stock. I have a mopar S2, which in my car basiclly amounts to the injectors and ECU. Ebay $285 FMIC. clipped/ported stock TD04 turbo, ported exhuast manifold, and aftermarket exhuast. Stock Suspension on 24.5x8.5x15 M&H slicks. Full weight car, not carbon fiber, no fiber glass, no race batteries or anything. From the TB to the oil pan is stock, peroid, so I didn't think 11.94 was too bad in a FWD car ( the car has a lot left in it, I had a wastegate issue at the track that night ).

Again, I wasn't asking about how to tune my car really... With a turbo this small, sometimes adding timing is a GOOD THING with a piggy-back.

I HAVE "AFTER IC, BEFORE THE T/B meth injection" already. I works, its great, its tuned for it. I know meth injection works. I know that for SURE, the W/I lets me run about 8degrees of timing more than without ( peak timing ). It drops the IATs a lot also. On the stock IC, it knocked 55degrees of the IATs. I can see BELOW abundant IATs sometimes now with the big IC.

The compressor map shift is what I'm after. I know after IC, before TB is best, but I'm not working the optimal everything, and I DO ALREADY HAVE normal W/I. I just wanted to ask about pre-turbo W/I experences with wheel wear, and/or problems, but I guess most you guys haven't messed with it. If my turbo was a T3/T4 60-trim stock, I prob. wouldn't either :biggrin:

I've also thought about the meth. eating aluminum, but its doesn't seem to eat intake manifold, so I'm not sure how big of an issue it is.

If I had all the $$$ to go with a stand-alone, I'd be on a bigger turbo already, running 12.3@180mph like the rest of the big turbo SRT4 guys with 430whp... I expect low 11's after the clutch with the nitrous.... Enough to get me kicked off the track in my wifes neon :lol:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/maximum_rip/detail?.dir=ae67re2&.dnm=97f5re2.jpg&.src=ph

I'd love to BS with you guys about my car, but its really not about "my car", its about pre-turbo W/I...

I can B/S with razor anytime, I see him at the track everytime I go. He gets a kick out of beating my pretty close to stock neon with his built motor, stand-alone, big turbo'd, TA I do love his car, b/c I see its FULL leather interoir, its reliabilty, and its damn fast times. I also love the car b/c I know just how rare it is. I know more about GNs, then most non-GN owners by far, and maybe even some GN owner, hahaha. That's why I came here to ask about pre-turbo injection ( only to find the tune-abilty of a car in question ).

My car runs 12.5-12.0 AFRs, peaks at over 40degrees of timing adavance, and runs like stock when not racing. If that's not tuneable, then I'm not sure what is....

Your car is doing well then. About razors tta. It is a sled. You have him by 1000 lbs. His car is full bar, t tops, leather, 9 inch rear, engine has no girdles, stock torque to yield main & rod bolts, no ballbearing turbos,no big external indy progates, etc. His car runs like it does because he tunes it safe & does the most with the least. I am not a newbie to the srt game. My old coworker was on stock turbo. This was right after they came out. Been awhile. He had mph , but not the e.t.s you have. Still he was on stock ecm, stock turbo uncapped stock dp, hd actuator for the turbo, fuel pump, & nitrous. Just because it isnt knocking does not mean its in tune. Alot of factors, but you are doing pretty good with what your doing so mad props

 

[ttawd3s]

Your car is doing well then. About razors tta. It is a sled. You have him by 1000 lbs. His car is full bar, t tops, leather, 9 inch rear, engine has no girdles, stock torque to yield main & rod bolts, no ballbearing turbos,no big external indy progates, etc. His car runs like it does because he tunes it safe & does the most with the least. I am not a newbie to the srt game. My old coworker was on stock turbo. This was right after they came out. Been awhile. He had mph , but not the e.t.s you have. Still he was on stock ecm, stock turbo uncapped stock dp, hd actuator for the turbo, fuel pump, & nitrous. Just because it isnt knocking does not mean its in tune. Alot of factors, but you are doing pretty good with what your doing so mad props

About 130whp/150TQ ago I ran 12.0@114mph with the nitrous. This was also about 50 passes and 8 bottles of 100shot ago. The stock clutch will not put up with anymore nitrous, so I'm stuck on the motor for now.

I ran the 12.0 with some 22'' tall $80 slicks, a used $300 mix/match NOS kit, mopar stage2, and a dumped catted stock DP. Between the turbo, the IC, and the tune, I've squeezed out another 130+whp, but the clutch refuses to agree. It ran 12.0@114mph with a 1.83 60ft time. added the 130whp and ran my DRs and it ran 12.2@114mph with a 2.0 60ft. The clutch just isn't cutting it.

SRT4 guys can have all the MPH on the planet b/c they spin. Just b/c a car runs a 117mph spinning, doesn't mean it would run an 11 with traction at 117mph. I pulled a 1.685 60ft time, and ran 7.6@91mph on my 11sec run, then the turbo fell on its ass due to the WG issue, and the fact its not a T3 turbo. Only trapped 111mph... Which brings me back to this thread asking about pre-turbo W/I to move the compressor map up a notch.

I have to keep my Knk sensor happy, so it can't ping or it pulls 8 degrees of timing ( yea enough for a 200shot ). You know anyone else running over 40degrees of timing advance without knock with a "bad tune", hehehe.

Its the second highest WHP stock turbo'd SRT4 in the country without nitrous ( 345/407 ( on the stock IC). With the big intercooler, its prob. IS THE HIGHEST WHP stock turbo'd srt4 in the country. Trust me, its tuned well... Should be making AT LEAST 365/370whp with the IC. Made 409whp/505TQ on the stock IC and the bottle on a mustang dyno, and yea... The stock clutch.

Trust me, I love razors car. I reallize how bad ass it is... My friends GN ran low 11's on DRs and never even took the Intake manifold off ( wait, he did have the air equallizer thingy, "the power plate" to stop the rear cylinders from running leaner due to the air pushing to the back of the motor ). He's doing an on-center TA Alum. motor now... Razor just seems to have toy'd with a SRT4 that didn't wanna be nice to him, so he's written them off, unless they have a $2500 stand-alone, which would be nice, but low 11's in a neon that drives like stock, has a fully stock interior, exteroir, and motor, isn't too shabby on the "un-tuneable" mopar PCM with a $200 piggy back. AMS built a SRT4 that made 682whp and 650TQ using.... Mopar S2 PCM and a Apexi AFC2.

To really hammer home the small size of this turbo, and why I'm interested in pre-turbo W/I, check these pic out.
This is a stock DSM turbine vs the stock SRT4 turbine
25 cent vs the stockturbine
This is the stock DSM compressor wheel vs the SRT4 compressor housing

The stock turbine housing has been compared to a .36 A/R, so as you can see, running an 11 ANYTHING on it, is amazing really, but I want mid 11's without nitrous.
And, just to let you guys know that I didn't come here to compare my car to GNs or turbo6's, look at my sign-up date, almost 4 years, I've only had my neon for 20months. I really came here seeking knowedge, not a debate over how/if my car is tuned properly or how fast my car is compared to a turbo6 car in th 1/4 mile. I was thought turbo-tech almost purely by a GN owner ( a 32K original mile GN owner ). I helped swap the Stage2 motor in his dad's T-type.

So... About the pre-turbo W/I .... Hehehe

 

[Razor]

Its like this,

When you end up hurting your engine.. you'll understand. It costs money to go fast. You have options.. as we all do. But when it comes to advice, I can only give you the advice that works for everyone who chooses to use it.

You can make an alky system hooking a line from your WW tank motor right into your TB off of a pushbutton switch.. does it work/can it work.. sure. Does it make it right to suggest someone do this, knowing there is a better way.. NO.. this is why I respond with the aftermarket ECU.

My motor is on a 100% stock 1989 GM shortblock. The only mods are cam, heads, and turbo. Down to all the bolts and hardware.. weighs 3800+lbs and runs the times.. has run the times.. still is running the times.. How???? by having a handle on the tuning and spending my money on keeping an eye on things.

This is why sooooo many EVO's go to the AEM.. and hell their ECU's are sorta tunable.

Your wanting to spray pre-turbo is a good thing.. let us know how it goes..I wont hit my turbo that way.. but if you want to do it.. great

You may not like the medicine.. but I need to make you aware of it. Cant personally condone doing something I wouldnt do/try myself. Dont take it the wrong way, wasnt meant to be.

See ya at BMP

 

[ttawd3s]

Not sure why this keeps coming back to tuning a SRT4, or why it keeps coming back to your set-up. I know your entire set-up, you personally told me, hahaha... I know your car runs mid 10s. I know its weight. I don't care about the SRT4 tuning crap, I didn't ask about it. If 683whp ( on a 4 banger )isn't "tuned", then I don't know what is. I don't plan on racing RWD auto turbo V6 cars in my FWD, manual, I-4... Or at least Razors... Or at least from a dig off the bottle JFWY.

I guess the answer I got is... No GN guys use it, so no one knows about pre-turbo W/I... If I had a GN/ T-6, I wouldn't care to use it either, as the turbo options are faster, cheaper, and easier on a GN.

 

[ttawd3s]

Talked to a few turbo builder, and they said, despite anything currently out that would make preturbo W/I safer for the turbo, the bottom line is it isn't.

different sprayers, different presures, different amounts it doesn't matter.

This is from turboshops that build turbos inhouse. They also told me with the extra weight of the liquid on the compressor, it adds to shaft stress, which in the case of my turbo, isn't good at all...

Again, still not personal experence, but I guess if the turbo builders say NO and the alky kit builders say NO, then I'm better off, leaving it be...

 

[spins4]

I guess we should go back to square one, which is, what are you trying to achieve by doing pre-turbo injection?

I can tell you I sprayed pre-turbo for 1yr and saw no effects on the turbo at all, regardless of what that turbo mfg. told you, those were my results. Although this was a good quality turbocharger.

 

[ttawd3s]

I don't need the cooling, I need the larger compressor/increased CFM it would add.

So the idea was to use it to make a SUPER small turbo act like a... kinda small turbo

I got to thinking about it... I'm already going to get kicked off the track next time I go, prob. not worth the extra complication of the car/system.

I'll leave before I put a roll bar in my wife's car...

 

[Razor]

First you get kicked out then worry about the bar..

Like who's gonna kick you out

BMP wont... hell i've run in the 10's with t-shirt and shorts

Sunshine and Lakeland... hahahaha they wont..

Gainesville, Spinworld, and Moroso will burn you a new one tho.

 

[ttawd3s]

First you get kicked out then worry about the bar..

Like who's gonna kick you out

BMP wont... hell i've run in the 10's with t-shirt and shorts

Sunshine and Lakeland... hahahaha they wont..

Gainesville, Spinworld, and Moroso will burn you a new one tho.

That makes me very happy to here as I'm going to be testing a lot of new SRT4 products for a major SRT4 vendor there, and it could end up in the 10's, but I doubt it, but low 11s isn't un-reallistic. I met the goal of the car, which was to run 11's on the stock turbo without nitrous.

I love BMP. Its the best track around easily... Lakeland = No more. It sucked, but at least it gave me a place to test that wasn't 83 miles away....

 

[Daniel Jost]

I used to run Alky/Water injection before the turbo on my hotair, before my new setup. All i have to say is DON'T DO IT, if you want pictures im sure i could get some of the damage that the water/Meth did to my compressor wheel, it looks like someone put a pinch of sand through my compressor when i was a full throttle!

,Dan