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Preferred frictions?

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HellOnWheels

HellOnWheels
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Messages
1,012
What are the preferred brand frictions to use in the forward drum, stock, Alto's, etc...???


Thanks,
Jerry
 
With my limited experience

I use stock (4) and stock steels in the forward drum--7 Alto and 7 Kolene steels in direct (also use an aluminum apply ring instead of the stock thin one) in direct. Best of luck.
 
I use stock (4) and stock steels in the forward drum--7 Alto and 7 Kolene steels in direct (also use an aluminum apply ring instead of the stock thin one) in direct. Best of luck.

Lee,

You don't think alto's would be needed here? The forward clutch is a billet piece and I will be launching off an electric trans brake ocassionaly.

All opinions appreciated!

Thanks,
Jerry
 
Forward frictions

Are not shifting frictions--once you put car in gear they apply and stay applied. Where as directs apply when band releases (1-2 shift) So they apply while moving. Not a lot of $ so if you feel better with Altos-- do it. The only time I have seen forwards burnt was from low line pressure.
 
I agree with Lee here.
I think there would be more advantage to getting 5 forward frictions than to any particular type of friction in that pack since they are non-shifting.
I usually use 6 Alto Red and stock steels in the directs.
I prefer Borg Warner tan frictions in the OD and forwards.
 
I agree with Lee here.
I think there would be more advantage to getting 5 forward frictions than to any particular type of friction in that pack since they are non-shifting.
I usually use 6 Alto Red and stock steels in the directs.
I prefer Borg Warner tan frictions in the OD and forwards.

Jakeshoe,

Are you using a 5 clutch pack, if so what size (thickness) are the frictions and steels, and where do you buy them?


Lee,

Would an aluminum apply ring be any help in the forward?


Thanks for the help, I do appreciate!

Jerry
 
Imo

It would give more uniform clamping force--but is it necessary--probably not. As I said I have never burnt forwards. I used to use the aluminum in forward but have not for the last 2 years and can see no difference.
 
I usually use a 4 clutch forward, like Lee it hasn't been an issue for me.
I would use the thinner .060 Alto kolenes and a direct pressure plate to squeeze more frictions in if I felt it needed it.
 
It would give more uniform clamping force--but is it necessary--probably not. As I said I have never burnt forwards. I used to use the aluminum in forward but have not for the last 2 years and can see no difference.

Lee,

Here's what I have in the forward: 4 frictions @ .078", 2 steels @ .090", 1 steel @ .075", 1 wave @ .060", 1 Kollene @ .057", 1 backing plate @ 1.77".

CK manual calls for 1 wave, ATSG calls for 2 waves???


Jerry
 
I usually use a 4 clutch forward, like Lee it hasn't been an issue for me.
I would use the thinner .060 Alto kolenes if I felt it needed it.
 
No offense to anybody but...

This thread is a joke.

What frictions used depends on the application and desired need for the application they are being used in. 5 frictions in forward is useless. NO benefit whatsoever , in fact, it can be detramental if the ring gear is not cut down.
Ah Hell, you could put steel clutches in forward and it would make no difference at all. There is so much more to this and since 40 do-it-yourselfers would jump in and contradict me, I am not even going to bother to explain what and why to use what. I "only" have 25 years of experiance with this and assisted in designing both the red Alto's and Raybestos Blue plates for this trans, so who am I to comment?

Know it all Jakeshoe will tell you what to use. I would listen to him. He is the pro here I guess.
Kolene steels are useless. They are a great marketing plug tho. Go ahead, waste your money.

Someday, maybe you guys will listen to the people who "KNOW".
Till then, keep throwing money at it, sooner or later it "might" work.

Don't mean to sound crass but sheesh, I would be asking "WHY" and "WHEN" to use what.
THAT is the question.

Bruce
WE4
Performance Transmission Services
 
Hey Bruce,
I said "if I felt it needed it" and the only reason I would use the Kolenes is because they are thinner and commonly available in .060" thickness.
I usually don't recommend Kolenes because I feel they are an unnecessary expense and don't do anything but drain the wallet.
My theory is you have a "paper" friction, how much harder do you need a steel plate to be than just plain steel? It doesn't need to be nitrided, it is already harder than the paper.

Since you have 25 years of experience and know everything yourself why don't you join a technical discussion instead of berating it and the people involved. Or are you too good for that?
Why don't you explain why 5 clutches with greater friction area are not as good as 4 clutches, all else being equal? There are some pretty basic laws of hydraulics and physics involved here, but apparently your are so good you have overcome them.


You should get off your GOD act. I'm doing quite well taking business away from you.

This car:
100_4050.jpg

Look at the date. It got all CK billet internals, trans built by me for a member of this BB.

This unit built the day before, also with CK internals.

100_4068.jpg


This car got one of my 200-4Rs a couple of weeks ago, also with a CK drum, servo, etc.
100_3970.jpg


Wanna know why they get CK parts?
Because of your god attitude,how unimpressed I was with your "shift kit", and the conversations I've had with some of your FORMER customers when I used to plug your product online.

I've spent the time to learn the ins and outs and been under a couple of cars myself in my 14 yrs of building transmissions and other automotive work.
I've found that often there is more than one way to make things work.
It's a lesson you might learn eventually.
 
Know what Jakeshoe?

You are correct. In alot of ways. But my GOD attitude is where you are wrong. You have talent, that has been proven. I guess what happens is , if you ask some of the builders that do it for a living on here, things are preached, answers are given, but when it comes down to building a unit, most people balk at what it really costs and we , trying to make a living suffer. It gets old after awhile and yea, I should sit down and explain. To be totally honest with you, it is the STEEL that is the most important part , not the friction.My time has been short lately, and I am man enough to admit, I was a little out of line, but I hope you get my drift. But after repeated discussions, and in Strengthening The 2004r thread, it is overlooked that the steel is the key to dissapating the heat out of the apply and release. Yes, the friction plays a part, and what the unit is used for would determine that. As for the forward clutch, the fact you were trying to make was that with 4 discs, you have X amount of apply surface area, and with 5 you have 25% more apply surface. However, since the forward clutch is a "static" clutch , meaning it is only ON or OFF. Once applied as long as the clearence is right, it will hold to the amount of mainline pressure applied. The main reason for Forward clutch failure is one of two things and one is 90% which is low on fluid, and 10% the stock discs just get old and the lining deteriorates. Hope this explains some. Key here in the shifting clutches such as direct is to use the THICKEST steels you can so the heat is dissapated. The clutch surface area of a 6 disc high clutch is more than sufficient. Sorry if I rattled some feathers and I will not do it again, and we can get even more into the direct clutch stuff which is alot more important than this one. As Lee and the others say, The forward clutch discs can be BONE STOCK clear down to a 8-9 sec car. In fact a set of great condition original factory discs are the best. Simple overhaul kits with either Raybestos or Borg Warner are more than ever needed for the forward clutch.

We alright?

Bruce
WE4
Performance Transmission Services
 
Bruce,
I have recently become "one of the builders who do it for a living here". This is my full time job now.
I do mostly transmission work but some engine and general performance work.
Chris can attest to this since I've gone from ordering hard parts once every month or two to ordering once or twice a week.
I never said the 4 clutch forward was inadequate. I haven't seen issue with it even using a stock tan friction.
My statement was that I don't see what type of friction material being all that important in the forwards. I believe you would gain more holding power by adding a friction, than by any type of friction/steel combo you could use. There just isn't 25% difference in the co-efficient of friction between any two common automatic trans friction materials.
If you got to a point where you were overcoming the 4 clutches in the forwards, it would be time to add friction surface area, apply pressure, or apply area. The easiest being apply pressure, the next being friction area, and lastly and not easy at all, the apply area.
I also don't believe the steel thickness is critical in the forwards. A .060" would probably work fine. I say probably because I haven't tried it. I haven't tried it because I haven't had reason.
I said I would use kolenes because, and ONLY because, they are available to me in .060" thickness within a day or less, and would allow an extra clutch to be squeezed in more easily, and it isn't a shifting clutch.

Would I use any .060" steel in any shifting clutch in any trans? NO, except to take up clearance.

We're alright.
 
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