Progressive Alky ????

[gbsean]

with the alky kits do they only come on only at WOT and a specific boost level ? Had a situation last night with a mustang GT pulling on to Route 80 I puched it and blew by him upto 110 mph I do not do this on a regular basis but the GT was doing the yo-yo in front of me for about 2 miles before we got to the entrance ramp( he would puch it the slow down till i caught up and punch it again) so i blew him away from about 65 mph. while cruising at 105 he caught me so i figured i would ease into the throttle and pull away. which i did but at about 10 psi knock sensor went off and showed 2.5* of retard. would Alky solve this problem.

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

progressive alky... is just that. It's progressive.... let's say at a set boost level of 10 lbs your alky sprays. As your you boost increases - your alky progressively increases as well to match boost. Its light years ahead of the older style which was a constant set amount.


how much boost are you running and what kind of mods do you have?

 

[Red Regal T]

progressive alky... is just that. It's progressive.... let's say at a set boost level of 10 lbs your alky sprays. As your you boost increases - your alky progressively increases as well to match boost. Its light years ahead of the older style which was a constant set amount.


how much boost are you running and what kind of mods do you have?

If that's so, why is it I can run my non progressive, $150 DIY at 25 lbs of boost w/ no knock. No knock is no knock. "Light years ahead"? I don't think so.

 

[gbsean]

ROYAL-T-LIMETED mods are listed in signature 15lbs boost sunoco ultra 94 just ordered electric exhaust dump. Car runs so much better open. I had seen that the progresive was at WOT then as boost increases from set point the alky increases....now with the tps at 1/2 would alky turn on. If the TPS tech was plugged in it would turn on at 3/4 throtle. is that correct

 

[Lee_Burough]

...Snip....would Alky solve this problem.

I think experts would agree that you need to solve that KR issue before you add an Alchy kit. The car needs to be running well before you complicate the system with another load of variables.

The potential is that the Alchy kit would make a big difference in that situation

lee

 

[gbsean]

isnt KR the result of detonation ie knock when you are in 4th gear that is quite a load on the engine. we are talking about accelerating from 105mph. In the 1/4 it has no KR and 02's are in the 820's with 15 lbs boost on 93 octane I am asking about a partial throttle 4th gear acceleration with alky. I think i remeber being told that 1-2 degrees of retard during shifts or at the top end is ok....i want to eliminate it but not in a WOT situation. just got off the phone with alkycontrol and their progressive kit works off manifold air pressure so no matter what the tps is if there is a boost condition above your setting the alky turns on.

 

[Lee_Burough]

isnt KR the result of detonation ie knock when you are in 4th gear that is quite a load on the engine. we are talking about accelerating from 105mph. In the 1/4 it has no KR and 02's are in the 820's with 15 lbs boost on 93 octane I am asking about a partial throttle 4th gear acceleration with alky. I think i remeber being told that 1-2 degrees of retard during shifts or at the top end is ok....i want to eliminate it but not in a WOT situation. just got off the phone with alkycontrol and their progressive kit works off manifold air pressure so no matter what the tps is if there is a boost condition above your setting the alky turns on.

You need to look for "false knock" too. Maybe your downpipe or crossover is hitting something....? Some say a few degrees of KR is OK, others say no. In any case, I'm going to tune my TTA for max boost with no KR and then add the Alchy kit and tune from there.

 

[2QUIK6]

If you are below 15# of boost you should not be seeing any knock at all no matter what gear your in.... Now if you are at part throttle and 10-15# of boost, thats a different story than WOT because part of your Power Enrichment fueling is based on TPS. If you are only at 2.5v TPS, you may be only getting 50% of the total PE fueling, which may be causing you to run lean for that moment, if the MAF is maxxd out at 15psi boost and you do not have an entender chip w/LT1 MAF....there's a lot of variables there.

So, if at 105 mph, you mash the pedal to WOT and get no knock, then your ok, car is running correctly, if you part throttle it and get iinto boost, then there's a lot of variables there that could cause a slight lean condition.

Now on the progressive alky. Progressive setups are better than non-progressives when it come to tuning..yes both can be setup to have no knock at whatever boost level you want to run at, but once the alky comes on in a non-progressive system, you will be running rich until max boost is reach provided you have tuned for max boost...reason is the alky amount/flow does not change from say a turn on point of 15# all the way up to 26#. And if your running a traditional setup where the MAF is maxxed out at around 16# boost, the fueling will not change much either....so the only thing changing is more air as boost increases to 26# from 16# finally reaching that "sweet spot" in the A/F at 26# of boost.
With a progressive system, you can tune it to a perfect A/R all the way up from 16# to 26# and produce the max power as boost is building by progressively adding more alky. Chip fueling also comes into play, but that can be a lengthy discussion...I'm assuming that the fueling is static once the MAF is maxxed which is around 16-18# normally.
M alky is set to come on around 5 psi and then ramp up with boost up to 24#.
Sometimes the transitional knock at the shifts is almost impossible to tune out depending on the car, that can be false knock as the motor rpms change speeds quickly.....put in some race fuel and see if it goes away to be certain.

 

[Lee_Burough]

If you are below 15# of boost you should not be seeing any knock at all no matter what gear your in.... Now if you are at part throttle and 10-15# of boost, thats a different story than WOT because part of your Power Enrichment fueling is based on TPS. If you are only at 2.5v TPS, you may be only getting 50% of the total PE fueling, which may be causing you to run lean for that moment, if the MAF is maxxd out at 15psi boost and you do not have an entender chip w/LT1 MAF....there's a lot of variables there.

So, if at 105 mph, you mash the pedal to WOT and get no knock, then your ok, car is running correctly, if you part throttle it and get iinto boost, then there's a lot of variables there that could cause a slight lean condition.

Now on the progressive alky. Progressive setups are better than non-progressives when it come to tuning..yes both can be setup to have no knock at whatever boost level you want to run at, but once the alky comes on in a non-progressive system, you will be running rich until max boost is reach provided you have tuned for max boost...reason is the alky amount/flow does not change from say a turn on point of 15# all the way up to 26#. And if your running a traditional setup where the MAF is maxxed out at around 16# boost, the fueling will not change much either....so the only thing changing is more air as boost increases to 26# from 16# finally reaching that "sweet spot" in the A/F at 26# of boost.
With a progressive system, you can tune it to a perfect A/R all the way up from 16# to 26# and produce the max power as boost is building by progressively adding more alky. Chip fueling also comes into play, but that can be a lengthy discussion...I'm assuming that the fueling is static once the MAF is maxxed which is around 16-18# normally.
M alky is set to come on around 5 psi and then ramp up with boost up to 24#.
Sometimes the transitional knock at the shifts is almost impossible to tune out depending on the car, that can be false knock as the motor rpms change speeds quickly.....put in some race fuel and see if it goes away to be certain.

Exellent thoughts

 

[gbsean]

2QUICK6 thankyou that is the answer i was looking for. The knock display never got into orange and i think the KR was from a shift, but i just replaced a head gasket so as soon as i see that 1st green light I back off and also the scanmaster is about a second behind showing the retard. As I said before I can launch and do the 1/4 with no problems but was looking to eliminate the top end knock. SO with the progresive alky all scenerios are covered. Now if I can only get the thing to hook up. now to order the kit and turn up the boost and see what happens.

 

[2QUIK6]

Remember also that 1-2 degrees can be forgiving at lower boost levels, say 21# and below, but its not so forgiving at higher boost levels, so keep a very close eye on knock, even if it is just a degree or 2, make sure you are certain it is false vs. actual if running higher boost psi than normal....but anymore 24# seems to be the norm

 

[gbsean]

thank you very much.

 

[Red Regal T]

How long does it take to go from 0 boost to 25lbs of boost? Half a second? To say you'll be running rich with non progressive is saying you'll be rich for less than half a second. Do you really think that the progressive really makes a difference? I don't. The knock gbsean is seeing is transitional knock. When you suddenly put more load on the motor and the gas or alcy isn't there yet to cool the cylinders.........you get some knock. I don't blame you for being touchy after just replacing a headgasket, but, it may have just been time for it to go. You're always going to see some KR on your scanmaster from time to time.

 

[2QUIK6]

How long does it take to go from 0 boost to 25lbs of boost? Half a second? To say you'll be running rich with non progressive is saying you'll be rich for less than half a second. Do you really think that the progressive really makes a difference? I don't. The knock gbsean is seeing is transitional knock. When you suddenly put more load on the motor and the gas or alcy isn't there yet to cool the cylinders.........you get some knock. I don't blame you for being touchy after just replacing a headgasket, but, it may have just been time for it to go. You're always going to see some KR on your scanmaster from time to time.

true depending on convertor and turbo, and if you are always WOT and never part throttle it on the street. As much as I love WOT, its not partical in daily driving experience around here It's all in tunability

 

[Red Regal T]

Well, my turn-on boost is about 9 or 10 lbs. Others I know don't turn on till say, 14 or 15 lbs because we show no knock at those boost levels. So, unless I'm going to full throttle, most likely I'm not getting to my turn-on point in normal driving. With progressive, you might have more to tune, but IMO, whether it helps or not, is debatable.

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

Red Regal T.... when i say its light years ...because it is. sure you may be able to run 26lbs of boost with No knock. But I dont think the first generation alky kit would have saved my engine like the progressive kit. You probably dont remember last year right after I installed by "super duper billet this billet that guaranteed to be able to handle 10 sec. pass P.O.S. rebuilt tranny" and on my 12.XX at 111 pass I broke the tranny... needless to say. All hell broke lose , boost spiked passed 28+, the vacuum line to the regulator shot of [Yes its tie-wrapped] and all could see in my rearview was beautiful BLACK smoke.... all becuz my PROGRESSIVE alky kit choked my engine with Massive amounts of alky. So instead of white head gasket smoke or worse my engine is fine and THAT is the reason I think Progressive Alky is better. I've seen fast cars with both but I prefer progressive enrichment. it just makes more sense.

 

[gbsean]

will alky eliminate that transitional knock?

 

[Red Regal T]

No. The knock will occur before the alky hits the combustion chamber and as the alky flows in, it goes away. It doesn't happen everytime. I think, all in all, running boost within the prescribed boost limits, having alcohol injection helps prevent headgasket failure over not having alcohol injection at all. Besides, it's a lot more fun to have alcohol injection.

 

[gbsean]

it seem's that a lot of people are running alky. what hp gains can be expected going from 19 psi to 24 psi or does it vary depending on the mods. I am learning alot from this.. thanks for all your input.

 

[streetknight]

I see nothing wrong with the old setup either. However, I run a progressive from the standpoint if you decide to change something on the car where your'e not running the same boost levels all the time. You don't have to keep changing the alky. It does it itself