Propane kit is in! And....

[spins4]

LOL, we are all grown up here....we can handle the truth! I don't think anyone can dispute that propane lasts ALOT longer. As a respected member of the board, I don't think anyone would dispute your real-world findings as being biased either. Just my $.02

I don't have any allegance towards one or the other....I just want to make the most HP possible. Isn't that everyone's goal?

 

[Turboniam]

Originally posted by spins4
I just want to make the most HP possible. Isn't that everyone's goal?

I think you speak for all of us when you put it that way!!!

 

[fubar2.5]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim
spins4, on my car with the cast heads, I was hitting 25psi with the SMC. Now with the alum heads, and the new set-up, I could only get 23 or so. Not much difference.

With SMC, you get great technical assistance. He spends as much time as it takes to help you. Nobody has ever had anything negative to say about Steve he is a real class guy. I bought his kit 3 years ago, and had it upgraded twice. Once for free, and another time for very low cost. His turn around time is a week, so there is very little waiting.

The SMC kit is a tried, and proven item. You can't go wrong with the product, or the man.

I would look for some improvements to the SMC system sometime soon. This should improve performance greatly. I have no idea, of course, what the improvements will be, of course..

There are people running very high boost numbers with the SMC. Also there is the low level warning light that could save a head gasked, or entire engine re-build. Something lacking in the propane kits. Also consider that the SMC allows for in-cab adjustments for weather conditions. Again, this is not available in the propane kits.

My bottle pressure in the propane kit went down tonight. I noticed the knock, and found the pressure had dropped from 60, to 20 psi. (bottle pressure) I have no idea wether the tank was one-half, or one quarter full when I started using it. My point is that there is no way of knowing when you are that low. With the SMC, the idiot light gives you plenty of advanced notice.

It is possible that both kits can work together, though more testing is neded. I'll be testing tomorrow.

Sorry guys, no camera. Not much to see, a tank in the trunk, and an up pipe with 2 aquamist lines, above a propane nozzle, and a hobbs switch. All comming in from the drivers side...

It does look kinda cool...

In response to your 1st paragraph using boost pressure as your criteria is not valid because with alum heads you have less resistance to flow.The ? is how much more is getting to cyl with less back pressure .The no. on the boost guage is whats NOT getting to the eng.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

fubar2.5, excellent point! I'm glad you brought that up.

Using the scanmaster, and the translator+ maf numbers, I could see 18 percent (approx) better flow with the alum heads. My 18 psi should produce the same power as 22 psi through stock heads. The fact that I tuned the alum heads to 21 psi with the SMC, should equate to tuning stock heads to 25+ psi.

(BTW when using MAF numbers off the Translator, the WOT setting must be at zero as adding fuel this way results in higher flow numbers.)

As boost numbers can be misleading, here is another example. Took the car to the track 2 months age, and had the SMC running at 20 psi. I thought it was my imagination, but the car felt like it wasn't pulling hard in third. All the other numbers seemed right as well. Egt's at 1600, 0-2's at .780 (but fell at the end of the quarter) Running pump gas.

Well the damm thing ran a 13.1 @ 99 mph, with a 1.74 60' time! I was the slowest T/R at the track. I didn't even want to pop the hood out of embarassment that someone would see alum. heads, and alchy. injection, and headers, big turbo, etc.... I just kinda slinked away when the last race was over.

Since then I've gone 2 stage with the alchy, smaller nozzles, and am using full pump speed. Now the car pulld well in third. Seems I was dousing the spark just enough to rip myself off for about 70 horsies.

I guess the only numbers that really matter are the ones at the bottom of the time slip!

 

[Turbo__Tim]

To update on the propane injection:

Last night I made 2 test and tune runs, everything was fine until I went to take off and the car stalled. I went to start it, and it just cranked over. I looked at the scanmaster, and it had a '2' on the left side, and a bunch of dots (2..................). I turned the ignition off, then back on, and it went back to normal.

After that the car ran bad, got knock at 15 psi. I checked the propane tank, and it was nearly empty, so I figured that was the reason.

Today Herb Fishman (cowman) came by just as I finished the oil change. We filled the propane tank (it was empty) and the car still wouldn't go over 15 psi. without knock. (You could hear the valves pinging)

Wot fuel pressure is ok. Gasoline is fine. I disconnected the propane, and tried the SMC injection all by itself, and still no luck!

Needless to say the testing is done until I can find the problem.

My best guess at this point is that the chip, or the computer is messed up, and the timing is way advanced. The coolant temps are fine, but the egt's are way up there, for just a quick run to 60 mph. 0-2 numbers don't look all that bad, but the runs have been short, so no telling what they might drop to.

Timing chain slipping occured to me, but there is only 4,000 miles on it, and it's a roller.

Ideas anyone? The scanmaster doesn't pull up codes, as I'm using a different data stream. I'll be calling TurboBob to see about updating to his latest chip anyway..

 

[Two Lane]

You're blazing trails for the rest of us!

 

[import power on]

Running too much propane will make it over rich and cause High EGTs. EGTs actually rise moveing either direction from Stoich.

 

[WFO]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim


My best guess at this point is that the chip, or the computer is messed up, and the timing is way advanced. The coolant temps are fine, but the egt's are way up there, for just a quick run to 60 mph. 0-2 numbers don't look all that bad, but the runs have been short, so no telling what they might drop to.

if anything it sounds like not enough timing.advanced timing keeps the heat in the cylinder,where it transfers to the water(higher coolant temps).retarded timing lets the heat out into the pipes(higher egt's,lower coolant temps).

maybe have a look at your trans+ wiring?

later,sean

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Gees I'm glad you mentioned the trnslator, Sean. YOU ROCK!


Great news! I used the translator to pull 8 degrees of timing out of the base settings, then took 8 more out of wot.

No knock at 18 psi, and very little loss of power. No doubt in my mind that the timing is too high. Next will be to find what component is causing this. I'm thinking the chip.

 

[import power on]

You guys no your sheet

 

[JayC]

Is it a new chip? Chips just dont freak out for no reason. It either works or it doesnt. If it worked before it should be working now.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

3 year old chip, Jay. A while back I had something wrong with the starter circuit. (using same starter as then, problem cleared up on it's own) When I started the car one time the starter hung up for a second, and that took out the scanmaster. I sent it back and they put a capacitor in it maybe?

Last night the starter didn't hang up, but when I tried to start it the scanmaster went all flakey. Perhaps an old gremlin came back?

All I know for sure is the problem started up right after that, and now I definitely have high timing.

Could this possibly be the computer?

 

[JayC]

Possibly. I have seen ECMs go bad and give no indication that anything is wrong other than they run extremely lean.

 

[WFO]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim

All I know for sure is the problem started up right after that, and now I definitely have high timing.

Could this possibly be the computer?

do you have or can you borrow a scan tool that will tell you the timing?

that's friggin wierd...


later,sean

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I put a computer in it today ($40) same thing. I'll call Ramchargers Monday and get a chip. Been wanting to upgrade anyway....

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Of course Jay Carter has chips also!...

Jay, you have mail...

Well I tried everything I can think of, pulled a plug, even swapped the coilpack, and ESC.

I'm running with 16* total timing pulled, and 14 psi. 90% of the power is there.

If I zero out the translator+, I get pinging even with light acceleration.

I've bypassed the translator+'s timing control, still no good.

The scanmaster is showing all the right timing levels - for cruise it's 44*, idle, and WOT is 20*

No sign whatsoever the HG is blown.

 

[1987MCSSAeroCou]

So do you intend to run both propane and alchy, this is not clear to me...?

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I intend to try the two together... So far, with limited testing, it hasn't showed to make an improvement. Here is my little theory, and I could be wrong, I often am.

For the two systems to work together we need to accept that they control cylinder temperatures in two different ways.

(1) propane injection: Cools the intake charge. We all know that our cars can achieve higher boost in the winter.

(2) Alchy injection: Carrys heat out of the combustion chamber after combustion has taken place.

Here is something else to consider. One of the diesel injection vendors have found with propane injection, the EGT's will raise 50* when making that extra 80 horsepower.

Since the higher EGT's are produced without knock, this tells me that the propane is already doing a good job of removing the heat from the cylinders, and transferring it to the exhaust. Since there is only a few parts per million of water in the propane itself, how is this possible?

We all know that when warm, moist air rises, it condenses and causes rain. Imagine what happens when your intake air hits the sub freezing propane charge. Water. I was amazed at how well the propane worked the 1 day I tested it. It was 90* and 80% humidity.

Could it be that this small amount of water can cool so well? Sure, the people that run 'pure' de-natured are only injecting 10% water.

Could it be that the higher octane of the propane is preventing knock as well? Propane is 140+ octane, and who knows what percentage of the intake charge is propane? Very possible the final intake charge has near an 100 octane rating itself!

The final question then is - Is there 'room' for water injection, or does the propane and air intake charge, already contain enough octane, and water to do it's job?

I'm guessing that a tiny amount of water, delivered in a very fine mist, could help. Of course, there is only one way to find out!

 

[salvageV6]

Here's what I would do.

1. Stop thinking. Worked for me.

2. Check the plugs .0345" gap, wires, pop in a 93 street chip, make sure it's for the 50's. 18-22* timing. Fuel pressure 42-45psi. hose off.

3. Get the car to run with very little or no KR at 18 psi. in 1st and 2nd gear. Use Sunoco 94 gas.

4. Denatured Alky. 50/50 with water and some lube.

5.. Turn on the alky. at 12-13 psi., make sure it works set the pump on max., and then turn the boost up to 22psi or so in 2 psi. increments and note KR. If none proceed to 24psi. and you still should have no KR.

6. Then you can start messing with the propane.

 

[import power on]

The raise in EGT (noted in last post and on Diesel propane websites) for Diesel motors is because what it is doing for the diesel fuel. This is totaly different than Gas turbo.

It is used for diesel fuel vehicles to make MORE of the Diesel fuel burn. This in turn creates more power. Of course with more diesel fuel burning you get more heat.

It is used in Gas Turbo vehicles to lower intake charge temp and to raise octane. No more GAS is made to burn but detonation is supressed. This allows better timing. Most, as I, can net 5-8 more PSI safely on pump gas and see a DROP in EGT's of about 100C. But you will need to run your normal fuel leaner to coincide with the addition of the secondary fuel.

Remember not to run too rich. Most don't know or remember:
The lowest EGT will be at STOICH. Moving away from STOICH into LEAN or RICH will raise EGT. Most think that running rich will cool and lower EGT. One must remember that the more content in the cylinder the more must be compresed. One of the main pysical characteristics of compression is heat, and as you add to the volume to be compressed heat will rise.

It's about tuning. And you guys know more about that with your cars than I. I am on the import side when It comes to tuning. But the above, of course, relates to physics and is not make-model dependant. Just don't lean out your main fuel so much that it will cause damage if your propane runs out.