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Putting the motor together

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gmpower6

Member
Joined
May 25, 2001
Messages
533
Finally looking to start this week have a few questions

1- What are the torqe specs on rod,and main bearings? I will be using arp rod bolts and main studs. ARP lube

2-Head bolts torqe specs? ARP bolt with arp lube. Stock head gaskets.

3- Ring gap? Using speed pro file fit rings,with trw forged .30 pistons.

4- What should i be looking for clearence on the rods and mains?

5- Any other sugestions should i look for?


Thanks Sean
 
1- What are the torqe specs on rod,and main bearings? I will be using arp rod bolts and

Phone ARP and get the numbers from them. Stock numbers might be the same...but they might not be as well.

2-Head bolts torqe specs? ARP bolt with arp lube. Stock head gaskets.
Same as above, although a 'search' may answer this one.

3- Ring gap? Using speed pro file fit rings,with trw forged .30 pistons.

Again, a search may provide you with the numbers required. There are a few different theorys out there, but I'm certain a search will provide details on all.

4- What should i be looking for clearence on the rods and mains?

If you can get 'em .0015 on both, you're doing great...the tighter the better and .003 is too much! Don't rely on Plastigauge, use a micrometer.

HTH
Jim
 
When i picked my rods up from my machine shop, they told me what to torque them to. You should check with the machine shop in which you got the rods done. (assuming you had them chamferred so the bolt fits flush). Mine were torqued at 50 ft#. These are ARP with ARP assembly lube.
 
1- 70 lbs. for ARP rod bolts and 100 lbs. on ARP main studs.

2- 85 lbs. for ARP on long bolts and 75 lbs. on short bolts.

3- Depends on how your intended use. If you are going to run high boost >20 PSI most of the time then shoot for .006" per inch of bore. If it will be more docile (less heat and boost PSI) you can go .005" or just compromise with .0055" :D Instruction sheet with rings will give specs for forced induction.

4- Debateable question. I know it is 50/50 if you took a poll on tight or loose. The motor I built and ran for a while then sold to Banning had .0025" starting at the front main and .003" at the rear and .002" on all the rods measured with plastigauge. He has run the crap out of it and is putting some heavy equipment on it to even beat the crap out of more and has had zero problems. Still on this board regularly (hope he doesn't read this). :) This motor I just sold out of my car to Frank in TX had .0015" on the mains and .0018" on the rods measured with a dial bore gauge and I beat it pretty good too! FWIW the looser motor held about 1-2 PSI more oil pressure:confused: I think .001"-.0027" on the mains and .0015"-.002" on the rods and you will not see any difference or problems related to them.

5- Nope! Take your time and keep it clean!
 
Jesse when i pulled my heads off in july the two longer bolts were the two top middle ones on the heads is that correct?

Also i am planning on running NO more then 23psi of boost and 15 on the street. So i was going to runs top ring 22 and the bottom 20 or would you rung a different ring gap?

And i am going to shoot for the the clearences you told me.

Thanks Sean
 
Originally posted by gmpower6
Jesse when i pulled my heads off in july the two longer bolts were the two top middle ones on the heads is that correct?

Also i am planning on running NO more then 23psi of boost and 15 on the street. So i was going to runs top ring 22 and the bottom 20 or would you rung a different ring gap?

And i am going to shoot for the the clearences you told me.

Thanks Sean
Yes, the top ones are the longer ones. Laid out they will look longer:D I use Permatex #2 on all the threads before screwing them in the block and use a cleaning tap to clean all my threads before assembly. Your only concern with ring gap is so they don't butt. Racers that tear their engines apart constantly push this tolerance to the limit to get a better seal and know from doing it just how far they can go. We basically don't have that option so keeping it on the high side gives more insurance. It isn't as bad with forged pistons with rings butting but hypers will tear a ring gland out fast! New engines today use a looser second ring gap to give exhaust gas a place to escape so the top ring doesn't unseat at high rpm's. Old school everyone ran the second ring tighter than the top but if you look in auto books today it has reversed. The factory specs on our motors set the top and second at the same. I used .022" top and .024" second on my motor with .030" J&E's. Your .022" should be fine. I will see if I can find the info and post it for you.
 
jesse just looked on gnttype list and its say 40ftlb on the rods wow thats a big difference from 70ftlb. Must be the arp lube and bolts.

I allready ripped a ring gland out of one of those trw pistons so maybe i should go a little higher maybe 24 top and 20 bottom. What do you think?
 
Closing the Ring Gap

Engine Builders Creating Maximum Power By Managing Ring Gaps Through Proven TechnologiesBy Scott Gabrielson Ask any successful engine builder in NHRA or NASCAR competition about his recommended end gaps for the top and second piston rings and you'll probably hear "no comment." And for good reason. It's impossible to overstate the importance of running with exactly the right end gap if you're hoping to create a perfect combustion seal over the course of a race, be it a quarter-mile pass at an NHRA track or a 500-mile superspeedway event. The fundamental principal behind maximum ring performance and efficiency in a racing engine is sealing all of the compression with the top ring. This fact is born out through the proven pressure dynamics between the top and second rings: The top ringis sealed against the cylinder wall and the bottom of the ring groove by the pressure differential created during the piston's combustion cycle. As pressure increases above the ring and between the ring's inside diameter and the piston groove, the ring is forced downward and outward, creating a tight seal over a wide range of engine rpm. Even though it is often called a "compression" ring, the second ringin a racing engine should not be counted on to seal combustion gasses, but simply to scrape excess oil from the cylinder walls. In order to utilize the second ring for additional combustion sealing, it is necessary to virtually eliminate the ring's end gap. This, however, is disastrous from a compression standpoint: With a small (or no) second-ring end gap, combustion gases become trapped between the second and top rings. As the piston moves through its power stroke, these gases will lift the top ring off its land, causing extreme loss of seal and promoting ring flutter. The secret to more power, therefore, lies in keeping the combustion gases above the top ring. And although many engine builders in NHRA and Winston Cup competition won't share their secrets regarding top ring clearances and end gaps, the optimum approach can be found simply by relying on a world-class ring supplier that partners with winning teams. Fact: There are No Shortcuts Needless to say, the top ring in a racing engine is required to withstand considerable abuse, in spite of the fact that the rings typically are becoming thinner and lighter to minimize frictional horsepower loss.
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The best top-ring technology in today's ultra-high-horsepower engines features a one-piece design utilizing high-strength ductile iron with a plasma-moly facing material. The ductile iron material provides the strength and resistance to detonation required in a racing engine. The plasma-moly facing has a high melting point to resist scuffing, and a controlled application process that enhances ring lubrication. Some manufacturers use an advanced plasma-moly formulation that also has higher bonding strength to resist flaking and ensure extended face life. Of course, the optimal top-ring end gap for maximum sealing performance is near zero when the engine is at normal operating temperature. The trick comes in determining the best installedring gap, which, as the engine heats up, will close to provide a complete seal. The correct installed gap is a function of the bore size, piston, ring groove location and operating temperature at the top ring. Are Gaps Really Necessary? Is it possible to achieve maximum top-ring sealing with a ring that has zero installed end gap? Not as this technology exists today. One recent zero-gap-type top ring design is comprised of two individual pieces ­ a high strength ring with a separate steel oil rail-type piece sitting within a counterbore. These pieces are positioned so that their gaps are staggered, thus the claim that they have no installed gap. This approach offers several concerns: Because the ring is in fact two pieces, both must somehow maintain identical contact with the bore in order to seal properly. If the pieces act independent of one another ­ which is likely in a high-rpm, high-heat environment ­ ring face contact would not be consistent and sealing performance would suffer. In addition, if the two pieces perform independently, their respective gaps could become aligned, creating a wide escape path for combustion gases. In truth, the development of a zero-gap-type top ring begs the question: Why would you then need a secondring that has zero installed gap? The latter technology, which has been available for several years, employs a similar two-piece approach. This configuration has received exhaustive study by many of the best-known engine builders in NHRA and NASCAR competition, virtually all of whom have found that this type of second ring offers no performance advantage. The reason, again, is the potential for trapped gases between the top and second ring to lift the top ring off its land. The development of a top ring with zero installed gap, regardless of its manufacturer's claims, is an acknowledgement that the combustion seal in a racing engine must be at the top ring. Why do these zero-gap-type rings exist? Because it's a free market, and manufacturers can create and promote their ideas as they wish. The question, however, is if this technology were really valuable, why wouldn't the world's largest ring and engine manufacturers offer it? The answer is simple: real-world testing by these manufacturers
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­ and racing teams -- shows that this approach is not consistent with good ring dynamics and engine performance. At the very least, you owe it to yourself to ask for certifiable test results from any manufacturer that claims to have a "new" solution to combustion sealing. Ask successful performance engine builders whose rings they use in their racing motors. What's Right for Your Engines? Our company and others offer detailed ring gap specifications/recommendations for a full range of applications. These recommendations are developed through input from thousands of customers and real-world situations. If you rely on piston rings from a major, global manufacturer that has an extensive presence in NHRA and NASCAR competition, you can be confident that the materials and designs you use represent the best technologies available. When it comes to choosing the right end gaps for the top and second rings in your engines, use the manufacturer's recommendations as your guide. Again, the key objective is to achieve near-zero top ring end gap under real-world (racing) operating temperatures. If you're looking for short-cuts for more power through a new ring technology, they don't exist. The best engine builders focus, instead, on perfecting the fundamentals of racing-style rings ­ choosing the right materials from the best-known manufacturers and adapting these technologies to their engines. You can ­ and should ­ do the same. Scott Gabrielson is Sealed Power piston ring application engineer for Federal-Mogul Corporation. He works with dozens of racing teams in identifying the best ring technologies for championship performance.

They don't like Total-Seals but I am going to give them a whirl anyways!
 
Jesse they were a set that mike licht sold me.. Federal mogual rings. I built the motor in 98 lasted 19k miles and boom 15psi later on the street and NO compresion in number 5 cylinder.

Didn't hurt the block light hone and good to go.

Jesse that last message didn't work went to the site and it said make sure everything was spelled right.
 
Most important part of above link to read. You tell us what you like:

Speed Pro Top Rings
(Ductile Iron & HF479)
4.000" Bore Example
Min. Gap Factor
Moderate Performance .016 - .018 (.004 per inch of bore diameter)
Drag Racing, Oval Track .018 - .020 (.0045 per inch of bore diameter)
Nitrous Oxide – Street .020 - .022 (.005 per inch of bore diameter)
Nitrous Oxide – Drag .028 - .030 (.007 per inch of bore diameter)
Supercharged .024 - .026 (.006 per inch of bore diameter)

Speed Pro 2nd Rings
(cast iron)
4.000" Bore Example
Min. Gap Factor
Moderate Performance .020 - .022 (.005 per inch of bore diameter)
Drag Racing, Oval Track .022 - .024 (.0055 per inch of bore diameter)
Nitrous Oxide – Street .024 - .026 (.006 per inch of bore diameter)
Nitrous Oxide – Drag .028 - .030 (.007 per inch of bore diameter)
Supercharged .024 - .026 (.006 per inch of bore diameter)

Notice: Most of the second ring gap recommendations are larger than the top rings. Recent testing has proven that a larger second gap increases the top ring’s ability to seal combustion. This larger “escape” path prevents inter-ring pressure from building up and lifting the top ring off the piston allowing combustion to get by. Many engine builders have reported lower blow-by and horsepower gains at the upper RPM ranges with wider second gaps. Also, almost every new car made is using this inter-ring pressure reduction method to lower blow-by and emissions and to increase engine output.

There is some controversy as to the effect of water temperature on ring end gaps. Some racers feel that if their water temperature is low, compared to another engine of identical size, they could narrow up on ring gaps This is not true! Basically, piston and ring temperatures remain the same whether the water temperature is high or low. Theoretically, if you consider thermal growth or expansion, be it ever so slight, the engine with hotter temperature would have bigger bores. The engine with the lower temperature would have smaller bores. The above chart was developed for “normal” engine temperatures. If your engine water temperature tends to be low, you should run a larger end gap than recommended to compensate for the smaller bores.
 
Got it jesse good site and alot of info there. Now if it was your motor what would you set the gap at? The rest of stuff i got but this is the first time i will be using file fit rings and doing it my self.

Thanks alot for the infomation. Sean
 
Well:


I used .022" top and .024" second on my motor with .030" J&E's. Your .022" should be fine.
 
Originally posted by Intercooler


Notice: Most of the second ring gap recommendations are larger than the top rings. Recent testing has proven that a larger second gap increases the top ring’s ability to seal combustion. This larger “escape” path prevents inter-ring pressure from building up and lifting the top ring off the piston allowing combustion to get by. Many engine builders have reported lower blow-by and horsepower gains at the upper RPM ranges with wider second gaps. Also, almost every new car made is using this inter-ring pressure reduction method to lower blow-by and emissions and to increase engine output.



Sean,

Judging from your intended ring gaps you must have not read this:confused:
 
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