REALLY low oil pressure...

[JREPOU2]

dude im sorry to tell ya my car did the same thing thing until last week on I87 when I lost all pressure and it started running hot! Your in for a rebuild! I had excessive clearances on the mains!! I would park it so you dont do anymore damage than already done, And your rebuild will be a little cheaper!! Good luck.

 

[ESP Products]

In this case, to have gold is bad. I would suggest pulling the engine now, BEFORE further damage, and expense, occurs. You are beyond band-aids.

Hope this helps you.

 

[Rodney87GN]

Yeah I didn't think gold flakes in the oil was a good sign.

Guess it's time to start looking for an engine rebuilder. On the plus side now I can build the motor the way I want. :biggrin:

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

yea me too. im not all that mad, as i wanted to do some new high speed main caps and all that fancy stuff yadda yadda. Oh well, its pay now, or pay later i guess. But when im done... muahahahaaaaaaa
I already know how fast these things are on stock blocks.. wait till i do this rebuild.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

yea me too. im not all that mad, as i wanted to do some new high speed main caps and all that fancy stuff yadda yadda. Oh well, its pay now, or pay later i guess. But when im done... muahahahaaaaaaa
I already know how fast these things are on stock blocks.. wait till i do this rebuild. This just gives me an excuse to yank the motor. sweet...

 

[VadersV6]

i understand the cold start up noise... i work on cars (mostly change oil) for a living.. i do it all day every day. MY problem is, NOT at startup, but all day while its running. Thicker oil/longer filter, louder noise.... smaller filter/thinner oil, quiter noise.. ALL while its running. all day. Thats what stumps me.

And about your thermodynamics question.. the lower number, or the first number is viscosity at startup, the second number, is viscosity at operating temperature. Does oil get thicker when it heats up? Yes. The polymers actually unwind with heat. And wind back up when its cold. Thermodynamics only governs some liquids sometimes.. Not ALL the time.
True, the liquid does get thinner, but the polymers unwind as well. So that evens it out. If it actually got thinner at OT, the engine would get 30,000 miles of wear within 15,000 miles.. If its 30 weight oil, it will stay 30 weight while at OT.

First you say "Does oil get thicker when it heats up? Yes."
Then you say"True, the liquid does get thinner"

Which is it?
I used to think it worked the way you're saying, but got attacked by a bunch of people on a message board about 5 years ago and was told otherwise. Also Im not so sure about thermodynamics picking and choosing how heat is going to affect a given gas or liquid.

Straight from the first page that popped up on a search...
"Since oil gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, most of us use what are called multi-grade, or multi-viscosity oils."

This is from:
http://www.autoeducation.com/autoshop101/oil-change.htm

From the second page that popped up...
"The complicating factor is that the viscosity of an oil varies with changes in temperature – thinner when hot, thicker when cold. At low temperatures, we need the motor oil to flow readily (not thicken too much or gel). At high temperatures, we need the motor oil to keep from becoming too thin and allowing metal-to-metal contact. Therefore, engineers developed multigrade motor oils."

This is from:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/Car_Care_FAQs.aspx

I would think that Mobil of all companies would understand what it means.

From the 3rd page that popped up:
"The viscosity of any oil changes with temperature. The higher the temperature, the lower the viscosity—the oil thins out. On the flipside, the lower the temperature the higher the viscosity. Because of this, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has established a series of viscosity classifications that establish oil performance at 100 and 0 degrees Celsius (212 and 32 degrees Fahrenheit, respectively)."
This is from: http://www.advanceautoparts.com/english/youcan/html/ccr/ccr20010101ov.html

 

[Red Regal T]

Yeah I didn't think gold flakes in the oil was a good sign.

Guess it's time to start looking for an engine rebuilder. On the plus side now I can build the motor the way I want. :biggrin:

Well, for sure, with gold flakes, your bearings are on their way out. You can easily change out the bearings without pulling the motor. Rebuilds are a lot of work, and if you aren't into it, for whatever reason, you can just replace your rod and main bearings, replace rear main seal, for under $75 you'll be good to go.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

it does thin with heat true, but, to try and counteract that, they designed it (synthetic im assuming) so that the polymers unwind at high heat, so that it sort of counteracts it a little, and prevents it from basically turning to water when your engine gets to operating temperature. So if you want to split hairs, yes, its viscosity does get a little lower but no, it dont thin WAY out like you think it does.

 

[Blown&Injected]

None of that really addresses the issue of viscosity change and how the numbers relate to the oil when cold and hot.

We need the oil to flow when cold and still be workable when at temperature. The first low number is followed by "W" for winter. It is the viscosity cold, the second number is the viscosity when at operating temp.

I never understood how or why the viscosity is higher when warmer as the oil sure seems thinner when hot - the explanation about the chains unwinding and winding up at different temps makes sense based on the 5w(cold)-30(hot) way the oil works.

First you say "Does oil get thicker when it heats up? Yes."
Then you say"True, the liquid does get thinner"

Which is it?
I used to think it worked the way you're saying, but got attacked by a bunch of people on a message board about 5 years ago and was told otherwise. Also Im not so sure about thermodynamics picking and choosing how heat is going to affect a given gas or liquid.

Straight from the first page that popped up on a search...
"Since oil gets thinner when heated, and thicker when cooled, most of us use what are called multi-grade, or multi-viscosity oils."

This is from:
http://www.autoeducation.com/autoshop101/oil-change.htm

From the second page that popped up...
"The complicating factor is that the viscosity of an oil varies with changes in temperature – thinner when hot, thicker when cold. At low temperatures, we need the motor oil to flow readily (not thicken too much or gel). At high temperatures, we need the motor oil to keep from becoming too thin and allowing metal-to-metal contact. Therefore, engineers developed multigrade motor oils."

This is from:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/Car_Care_FAQs.aspx

I would think that Mobil of all companies would understand what it means.

From the 3rd page that popped up:
"The viscosity of any oil changes with temperature. The higher the temperature, the lower the viscosity—the oil thins out. On the flipside, the lower the temperature the higher the viscosity. Because of this, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has established a series of viscosity classifications that establish oil performance at 100 and 0 degrees Celsius (212 and 32 degrees Fahrenheit, respectively)."
This is from: http://www.advanceautoparts.com/english/youcan/html/ccr/ccr20010101ov.html

 

[Blown&Injected]

From Chevron

Seems that my dad was right when he explained it to me in the 70's - how and why I remembered it is some type of gearhead infection

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/nafl/auto/content/motoroils.shtm
SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) Viscosity Grade
Viscosity is a measure of an oil's thickness, or resistance to flow. Lower numbers indicate thinner oil and higher numbers indicate thicker oil. There are two types of motor oils, single grade and multi-grade. Multigrade oil such as a 10W-30, are designed to have the viscosity of an SAE 10W oil at cold temperatures combined with the viscosity of an SAE 30 oil at engine operating temperatures. The "W" or "Winter" designation indicates that the oil meets viscosity requirements for low temperatures (below 30° F).

 

[Rodney87GN]

Well, for sure, with gold flakes, your bearings are on their way out. You can easily change out the bearings without pulling the motor. Rebuilds are a lot of work, and if you aren't into it, for whatever reason, you can just replace your rod and main bearings, replace rear main seal, for under $75 you'll be good to go.

That's a good option...hope I didn't spin a bearing. I guess I'll find out when I drop the oil pan. Provided everything is okay (crank and rods not damaged) would just replacing the bearings be a good long term fix? I know eventually I'll end up doing a full rebuild but for now will it last awhile?

 

[Blown&Injected]

there is often a reason for the bearings to go and if that reason is not remedied the new bearings will go fast.

It is a gamble - there is metal all thru the engine and it could take out the new bearings fast but it is not hard to do the job and the bearings are not that much money.

 

[DMan]

Yep - I say give Red Regal's suggestion a shot. Swap out the bearings before any damage gets done and see what happens.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

been there done that. in short? nope. you cant just throw in new bearings. ESPECIALLY in a buick motor. The tolerances are too tight. When our bearings go, most of the time, you gotta machine other things. and...what if your connecting rods ovalized. round bearings wont solve that. I already went over this in detail with my TR specific mechanic. A very well known and respected mechanic here in the detroit area. He explained to me why it wouldnt be a good idea to just throw some new bearings in there and go, and it made perfect sense. If you can even reach every bearing thru the oil pan. if your bearings went, chances are theres some other machining to do as well. ( i asked him the very question: what if i just threw new bearings in there and go) It would be one in a thousand chance that JUST new bearings would fix the entire problem. He said, for the cost of yankin the engine, tearing it down, machining it all right again, throwin new rings and bearings in there, and reassembling it, would be more cost effective, than just yanking it, throwin new bearings in it again, then reinstalling it, cuz its just going to go out again in a year or so anyways, thus doubling your expenses, when you could have just done it right the first time. Hes right too.

 

[Red Regal T]

been there done that. in short? nope. you cant just throw in new bearings. ESPECIALLY in a buick motor. The tolerances are too tight. When our bearings go, most of the time, you gotta machine other things. and...what if your connecting rods ovalized. round bearings wont solve that. I already went over this in detail with my TR specific mechanic. A very well known and respected mechanic here in the detroit area. He explained to me why it wouldnt be a good idea to just throw some new bearings in there and go, and it made perfect sense. If you can even reach every bearing thru the oil pan. if your bearings went, chances are theres some other machining to do as well. ( i asked him the very question: what if i just threw new bearings in there and go) It would be one in a thousand chance that JUST new bearings would fix the entire problem. He said, for the cost of yankin the engine, tearing it down, machining it all right again, throwin new rings and bearings in there, and reassembling it, would be more cost effective, than just yanking it, throwin new bearings in it again, then reinstalling it, cuz its just going to go out again in a year or so anyways, thus doubling your expenses, when you could have just done it right the first time. Hes right too.

Been there done that? Sounds like you had a conversation about it. Now of course, there's no substitute for spending a couple thousand or better rebuilding your engine, but it only costs about $75 with gaskets and about 6 hours or less, to replace your bearings, and could last indefinitely. Even spending a bunch of money rebuilding your engine doesn't mean it will turn out successfully. Didn't your 'Buick specific mechanic' tell you, you don't have to pull the engine to just replace the bearings, gasket and rear main seal? And the idea, that it's just going to go out again in a year is just flat speculation. I, personally, have been there, done that, and have 50,000 miles on the motor in my RED T since I changed bearings damaged into the copper by an oil starvation problem, and still runs 12s on street tires.

That's a good option...hope I didn't spin a bearing. I guess I'll find out when I drop the oil pan. Provided everything is okay (crank and rods not damaged) would just replacing the bearings be a good long term fix? I know eventually I'll end up doing a full rebuild but for now will it last awhile?

If you're motor is knocking loud, you have a spun bearing. If not, it ain't. With no spun bearing, chances are replacing the bearings will allow you to drive your car, in the same manner as you have, indefinitely. What do you have to lose? $75 and a few hours work?

 

[DR BOOST]

10w30

viscosity of 10 weight oil
w is for winter designation
30 means it maintains the film strength/ protection of 30 wt oil



if it increased viscosity when heated....why do we warm up oil cars before we change the oil? and why does the oil pressure drop when warm?

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

im sure it thins...just not as thin as some people think thats all.

and yes, i have replaced bearings in a buick 3.8 before. twice. and yes, there is no guarantee that ANYthing will last.... all the more reason to go ahead and yank the engine, and do it right. all the way around. so that you KNOW its done right, and done right the first time. thats the way i think. im an 'all or none' kinda guy. sorry.

 

[JDEstill]

geeze...

10W-40 means it has the viscosity of a 10 weight oil when it's cold, and the viscosity of a 40 wt oil when it's hot. That's *not* saying that a hot 40 wt oil is thinner or thicker than a cold 10 wt oil! Just that it is thicker than a hot 10 wt oil.

Example (just making up numbers here)
10 wt oil viscosity might be 10 centipoise (cP) at 50F and 1 cP at 150F
40 wt oil viscosity might be 40 cP at 50F and 5 cP at 150F
The 10 wt might be too thin at 150F, while the 40 wt might be too thick at 50F. So they make it multiweight to combine the best of both:
10W-40 would then be 10 cP at 50 F and 5 cP at 150F
Not that it is actually thicker when it's cold, just thicker than it would be if it was a straight oil. Again, all numbers were made up as an example. I'm sure you can get the actual numbers from the guys that make it.

John

 

[Red Regal T]

and yes, i have replaced bearings in a buick 3.8 before. twice. and yes, there is no guarantee that ANYthing will last.... all the more reason to go ahead and yank the engine, and do it right. all the way around. so that you KNOW its done right, and done right the first time. thats the way i think. im an 'all or none' kinda guy. sorry.

If you're in a position to do a lot of work and spend a good amount of money, put your car down for a couple months, have at it. That may be preferable to you, but not to me. I suggested an alternative, I know, works. Spending $75 and replacing the bearings in the car is easily a better choice than spending 10 to 20 times as much, unless you have the time, the money, and the desire. As far as doing it right the first time, I've read numerous posts on this site about people who went to the wall, spent all kinds of money on machine work, with machinists who claimed they knew what they were doing, and the engine didn't last 100 miles. What do you say about those people? They thought spending a lot of money means it's done right. WRONG! Having an engine done 'right' as you elude to, doesn't always work out. The idea that the only thing one can do is yank the motor and spend a lot of money is BS.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

and i can find just as many, if not more examples, of people I know, that tried that nickel and dime procedure of just throwin in new bearings thru the oil pan, and blew their rods as well... A lot of times, when people have bad bearings, and they passed a certain point of wear, the connecting rods have somewhat ovalized. What are you going to do about that?
The only way I can see someone wanting to do that, is if they somehow caught it VERY early in its stages, and corrected the problem right away. but, if you can see literally, pieces of copper or whatever in the oil, im guessing theyre a bit past just 'throwin in' new bearings.
I dont know, I guess Im just a complete type of guy. Not trying to bash anyone, Im just sayin. I dont like guessing things. Not with my buick. If theres something wrong, I would just pull it, open it up, and see whats goin on. If you have that many miles, that youve got audible rod knock? then theres more wear than just bearings at that point. Or, if youre not at a reasonable mileage, and you developed a knock say, at 50,000 miles? then again, you got some major problems. to just throw in new bearings thru the oil pan, and forget about it, in my opinion is just throwin a band aid on it.
Yea, I know you got many examples of it workin just fine..but that doesnt make it right. Im just not a risk taker thats all. I dont like to hope, or guess on some things. And jumpin timing, or throwin a rod out the side of my block, isnt one of those things I'd care to 'hope' on. I worked REEAL hard to get my buick. I would rather it done complete, and right the first time around.
And how do I know whether or not the engine rebuilder I choose is decent? Cuz I study. Read. and research. constantly..till i get it right. I check his background and his references. Its my job in the army, and ill make it my job out here, to fully recon the builder before I let my engine go under his knife....