Rebuild time, need bottom end advice

[postal]

Hey Mark......

Did Jack cotton sell your liquid IC for you? If so I'm probably the one who baught it. Also you may want to talk to Jack about that walbro pump. A single walbro isnt going to feed 83's through your stock lines.

Fly...
I Highly recommend Jack Cotton also. Jack is a consistently good guy to deal with. He is a little nuts though . Evey time you talk to him about going faster he is going to try to sell you a F.A.S.T system and a 66 turbo! He will get you what you need for a good price and stear you the right way though.

HTH: Jason
p.s: My buddy Rodger Davis aka Nashty has been running mid to low 10's for the last 3 yrs. He runs caps only, stock crank and rods, weisco pistons. The only real money you got to put in the short block is caps. You dont need racing rods or crank or none of that stuff. If you really only want to go mid 11's and no faster then you dont need caps at all. Cotton ran high 10's for a long time on stock caps with studs. If you only plan on running the correct fuel for the amount of boost and arent going to get crazy with the timing then caps would be a waste on a mid 11 second motor. The thing your the most likely to have probs with on a new rebuilt motor is the cam, unless you go with a roller.
You dont have to drop tons of money in the heads either. Gasket matching and a little bowl work will be plenty. There are WAY too many guys running in or better than your goal range with no head work at all.

HTH: Jason

 

[postal]

OK I'm still not done typing!

Probably you should ask your self if you want to cage the car or not. If your absolutely against caging the car then I would say:
1. trw pistons
2. small roller cam to avoid headaches
3. stock caps if they are straight and check out 100% ok
4. very mild head work(gasket match and pocket port most gain in head work is found here and by far the most bang for the buck)
5. mild intake manifold work (gasket match and remove EGR tower)

If you dont mind caging it:
1. J&E pistons
2. still a small roller. You can go low 10's all day long with a 210 roller with out really pushing the car. Lots of goofy stuff involved with turbo motors and cams. A small naturally aspirated cam will be too big and will turn your turbo motor into a big turd.
3. billet caps
4. full head porting
5. can go wild on intake if you got the $$'s. A now dead turbo buick and prostock bike builder told me personaly of picking up 50 hp by welding up the runners and straightening them out.

Just a red necks 2 cents: Jason

 

[fly89gta]

Thanks Jason!

Do I really need to go with TRW pistons? How much power can the stockers take? The reason why I'm asking is because the cylinders bores should be fine...no need to go .30 over or anything.

As for as the caps go, the reason why I'd be inclined to do a few is because like other said...do it right. The motor will be out...why not add some extra insurance if I want to go faster later? I mean if it's REALLY a waste then I'll skip that idea.

The heads are only getting some minor bowl work done, nothing major.

The more I think about it the more I might go roller...like you guys said if I'm gonna dump some $$ into the buildup why take the chance of having it ruined in 2K miles.

Any other suggestions fire away

 

[turbov6joe]

Too bad, as I've been told by JC a block girdle will not allow the motor to fit correctly...that would be the first "hard part" I'd put in the bottom end.

 

[TTA850]

Originally posted by turbov6joe
Too bad, as I've been told by JC a block girdle will not allow the motor to fit correctly...that would be the first "hard part" I'd put in the bottom end.

I've heard the same thing,though I have a girdle in mine I also already had the PA Racing tube K-Member which adds tons of room under there.Has anyone tried this to see if it will fit and/or whats required to make one work with the stock K-Member?

Steve

 

[TTA89]

Originally posted by TTA850
I've heard the same thing,though I have a girdle in mine I also already had the PA Racing tube K-Member which adds tons of room under there.Has anyone tried this to see if it will fit and/or whats required to make one work with the stock K-Member?

Steve

Ill let you know in the spring if it fits. I have a girdle on mine as well as the PA K-member but they refuse to send the A-arms to make it work..

I hate this ****ing hobby sometimes... everything takes 100 times longer than it should.

 

[postal]

I hate this ****ing hobby sometimes... everything takes 100 times longer than it should.

Amen brother!

 

[postal]

Do I really need to go with TRW pistons? How much power can the stockers take? The reason why I'm asking is because the cylinders bores should be fine...no need to go .30 over or anything.

Billet cranks, nasty rods and pistons, stage blocks ect. None of it will hold up under the wrong circumstances (severe detenation). If you keep away from detonation, and keep the rpms down then you shouldnt have any probs if the motor is built to handle the HP level. There are an awefull lot of turbo buicks that are and have been in the 11's with no problems and bone stock bottom ends.

How many miles does your motor have on it? Does it use any oil? Do you have blow by problems? Why do you want to open it up?

If you want to reuse stock pistons and you dont have blow by problems then I would not remove the pistons at all. Ring seal seams to be voodoo magic. New rings most likely will not break in properly in old bores(even if you rehone them). This is d/t the cylinders being out of round and tapered. Theres alot of power to be gained or lost when it comes to ring seal. If she uses oil d/t bad rings then you should be in a situation to rebore it.

If your really on a budget maybe look into a used motor. Some one is selling a used built 4.1 for like 2k. I personally got less than half that in a used 3.8 I bought. I also got some extra parts with the 3.8 I got that I can sell to get back some of my good ole american dollars! Thats the motor thats going into my TA when I get done messing with the stocker. The reason I recommend a used one is because people always seam to go WAY over budget when they build one. Odds are you will go way over budget too if you build yours. You will "might as well" your self 1 to 2 grand over budget. Maybe you should post the mileage and overall conditon of your current motor and then take some input.

HTH: Jason

 

[fly89gta]

Not sure of the overall mileage, I forget..somewhere around 60K BUT it has around 8K on a previous rebuild. What happened was the cam sensor gear drive pin snapped and caused the oil pump to clog. Something very freaking I know. So I HAVE to tear down the motor complete and have the block cleaned since I have some type of blockage, the lifters aren't getting oil

 

[mark b]

Postal - yes, Jack sold my I/C for me, so you got it? How is it working? That thing was aswesome. I really wanted to keep it but Jack talked me into parting with it. Sometimes I still think it was a mistake

> Every time you talk to him about going faster he is going to try to sell you a F.A.S.T system

Jack's reinforcing his customer's experiences, most lately Bob Vautrain (sig Nighttrain). Jack points out many people spend a lot of time and money chasing tuning. If you consider people with 3-6 chips, LT1 maf, translator, and 1-3 scan tools they could easily have spent 2/3 cost of a FAST. We argue with him it's still a wad of money

Arguably it can save a stock block running high HP. The wideband O2 is tough to beat!

Mike - how is it that you don't have a-arms? I got mine in less than a week. Just a screw up in shipping?

For sure the K-member makes a ton of room and can easily fit a girdle. I was going to do a girdle and got talked out of it by 2 builders I respect.

Actually I was thinking of putting my rebuilt motor into my GN because I keep looking at this Chevy ZZ4 motor sitting in my yard doing nothing and thinking "TTA Turbo V8". A guy just had the headers, turbo's and intake stuff for sale on this forum last week.

 

[TTA89]

Originally posted by mark b

> Every time you talk to him about going faster he is going to try to sell you a F.A.S.T system

Jack's reinforcing his customer's experiences, most lately Bob Vautrain (sig Nighttrain). Jack points out many people spend a lot of time and money chasing tuning. If you consider people with 3-6 chips, LT1 maf, translator, and 1-3 scan tools they could easily have spent 2/3 cost of a FAST. We argue with him it's still a wad of money

If you can't figure out how to tune your car out of the 12s with the most basic equipment how in the world are you going to figure out a FAST system?

If you can't get out of the 12s with a Chip and Turbolink then no way are you gonna do any better with a FAST system.

I have seen those cars at the track, I know exactly what you guys are talking about.

 

[mark b]

>If you can't figure out how to tune your car out of the 12s with the most basic equipment how in the world are you going to figure out a FAST system?

I respect your point, understand what you are saying but don't necessarily agree. I could argue that "a person" could have a competent FAST tuner setup the program and then run off the wideband safely while not even knowing what it does. A FAST system can be as complex or simple as you want to make it. If you are going to dick around with every parameter without knowing what you are doing, I agree - you are in the wrong place and it's a recipe for disaster.

It's not something I want to bend this thread on and debate Mike. I think there are many points of view and I respect yours.

 

[TTA89]

You don't need to respect my views, Hell my views are pretty different than 90% of the people here

I just don't agree with spending big money on parts that you don't need to reach your goals which is what seems to be the norm.

I'm just talking out loud, don't mind me

 

[fly89gta]

Mike, you still haven't helped me lol

 

[TTA89]

I thought your questions were answered?

 

[fly89gta]

they were, just playin with you

 

[mark b]

Hey Mike - I got a different perspective after talking to the big dawg a few weeks ago. Some people have laid out $200 in chips, $300-400 for an LT1 maf and translator, $250 for a Scanmaster and maybe t-Link or Direct scan (say another $200).

That could be over $1K. You could sell that stuff and get a Felpro and then get real tuning potential, even if you personally don't know how to do it. I've seen Jack Cotton take 2 runs on a Felpro and have a car running better than any chip no matter how many times it was burned.