Red Armstrong's new MAF setup

[Steve Wood]

In my experience, heating up the o2 sensor makes it read higher...therefore I interpret a flat o2 sensor in third gear as signs that things are leaning out.

When I cruise down the road with the factory o2 reading 000 and I am not overly lean, I have serious doubts about anyone that uses it to tune with.

Take a pill, Bruce! I am with you on this one and I don't want the shock to confuse your pace maker!

Calm down, Testa, all those threatening late night calls can be call forwarded to Mz Cleo.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Steve,

You always crack me up! Ms. Cleo, "That's Gold Jerry, Gold!"

Does Ms. Cleo serve bathtub gin??

 

[stangbanger]

bruce,

I agree that for a fair comparison the chips should be optimized. I know that burning a chip is a fairly easy thing to do. I've seen it done many times. But in my little corner of the redneck world, I personally know zero TR owners who burn their own chips. I, like most, call a vendor, give him the combo, receive and try the chip, return it for tweaking (maybe even send a DS file), and repeat this process for as many times as you like. This gets old after a while and you decide that it's good enough.

As far as the other points on spooling and O2 readings, I'm just telling everyone what my opinion and experience is with this unit. I've never used a translator, so all my comparisons are made with a stock, screenless MAF. The translator may be the greatest thing for a TR ever made......I don't know. All I know is I'm running 10s at over 124 with the original, unmodified long block and I'm happy.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
In my experience, heating up the o2 sensor makes it read higher...therefore I interpret a flat o2 sensor in third gear as signs that things are leaning out.

When I cruise down the road with the factory o2 reading 000 and I am not overly lean, I have serious doubts about anyone that uses it to tune with.

Take a pill, Bruce! I am with you on this one and I don't want the shock to confuse your pace maker!

Calm down, Testa, all those threatening late night calls can be call forwarded to Mz Cleo.

Ohhhh, Steve, are you absolutely sure about the reaction to the O2 sensor, and heat/backpressure? The reason I ask is, because I've been told repeatedly by people that know a lot more about these kinds of things than I do that it's just the opposite. The hotter the O2 sensor gets (very high EGT's), the leaner the reading will tend. (I'm speaking of our O2 sensors). I've actually seen runs on a car that had both types, our switching O2 sensor and a Wideband O2. Looking at the run played back you could see the car's O2's "peedering" off as the run progressed, but the Wideband O2 didn't show this "leaning" out condition.

 

[Buicksx2]

Re: Re: New?...... MAF

Originally posted by TurboJim


Gee, I wonder if Mike will get a late night phone call telling him he's full of crap and that Bob is a thief/liar, cuz this is pretty much what I said in the first page of this thread. Although, I guess I did insinuate it was a translator copy BEFORE I talked to Bob and found out EXACTLY what this was....

I reiterate, guess I'm glad I dont use a MAF anymore....

Wheres my buddy Ron in all of this? Oh yea, mikes number is on his website... If anyone else needs my number, ask ME. My email is jtesta1966@aol.com

>>>> Jim,
What are you trying to say here? Did someone call you at night on your own time, time spent with your lovely wife, daughter and soon to be daughter at your home to a number that is unlisted and said you were full of crap????

WOW if that is what infact you are implying I am shocked. That would lead me to a series of questions:

1. Who called you?
2. How did he/they get your unlisted number?
3. What did the person who called say to you?

As far as your buddy Ron maybe he will form a committee to look into how that person got your unlisted phone number, right after he finds out when the folks are getting their jackets for being class winners at the Nats.

 

[Steve Wood]

Originally posted by TurboDave


Ohhhh, Steve, are you absolutely sure about the reaction to the O2 sensor, and heat/

There are few absolute truths and some of those get disproved occasionally.

With the ME, one runs open loop as you know. It is hard to know what actually goes on when running down the road because nothing is constant very long. But, when driving the car down to Mickey D's, the o2s will be reading 800 at idle when I stop in the take out line. As I crawl along with my foot off the brake, the o2s will continual drop even tho the idle mixture is a constant. By the time I get to the window, they will be around 740. When I leave the window and get two blocks away to the first stop sign, they will read 800 again. Pulse width has no discernible shift during this time other than then the normal small shift up and down. The only time is shifts at idle is if I turn the ac on/or off and the lv8 changes a bit. This is due to the open loop, of course.

Now, I guess backpressure does not have much to do with it in this instance.

My opinion is observed and somewhat empirical but may not be entirely correct. As the chip is open loop and does not react to o2 input, it would appear that the load of driving and the observed higher egts makes the readings at idle higher until the o2 sensor cools down at idle. Egts change rapidly but I would think the mass of the o2 sensor would take a bit longer to change temperature?

If I start the car and let it idle until the engine is warm, the o2s will read 740.

 

[azgn]

stangbanger, it is good to hear that Red finally figured out how to make a turbo spool.....Steve got it right with the ME right out of the box....I'll stick with him until further info is available, but I am glad you are pleased with the results....just keep that stock block together!

I would kill to run in some good air, sometime.......guess I have to move to Ohio or maybe Oregon

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Steve Wood


With the ME, one runs open loop as you know. It is hard to know what actually goes on when running down the road because nothing is constant very long. But, when driving the car down to Mickey D's, the o2s will be reading 800 at idle when I stop in the take out line. As I crawl along with my foot off the brake, the o2s will continual drop even tho the idle mixture is a constant. By the time I get to the window, they will be around 740. When I leave the window and get two blocks away to the first stop sign, they will read 800 again. Pulse width has no discernible shift during this time other than then the normal small shift up and down. The only time is shifts at idle is if I turn the ac on/or off and the lv8 changes a bit. This is due to the open loop, of course.

My opinion is observed and somewhat empirical but may not be entirely correct. As the chip is open loop and does not react to o2 input, it would appear that the load of driving and the observed higher egts makes the readings at idle higher until the o2 sensor cools down at idle. Egts change rapidly but I would think the mass of the o2 sensor would take a bit longer to change temperature?

You might be in error, while the ME might not be feedback (O/L), that doesn't exclude, timing and fuel changes for IAT/MAT and CTS changes.

EBP, and EGT do effect NB O2 output. The DIY_EFI archives have literary hundreds of threads about O2 operation.

BTW, the EPA and CARB still haven't agreed on what exactly a NB O2 sensor even reads (reacts to).

 

[Steve Wood]

at idle, in gear..most of the parameters don't change much according to DS altho mat does rise. Hard to say. All three of my vehicles show the same phenomenon but I am probably missing something obvious.

On the other hand, I still maintain that o2 (factory) readings are useless. As I said prior, if I can cruise at 000 and not be excessively lean, then I believe the readings are grossly misleading.

 

[CPAKCP]

I use both EGT and O2 readings while attempting to tune my car. From my experience, with a good O2, the readings go hand in hand. When my EGT read hot my O2 numbers were low!! Why limit your information!! And if the O2 numbers are useless why do they follow my EGT readings!!! Just my 2 cents.


James

 

[c&cgn]

Originally posted by CPAKCP
I use both EGT and O2 readings while attempting to tune my car. From my experience, with a good O2, the readings go hand in hand. When my EGT read hot my O2 numbers were low!! Why limit your information!! And if the O2 numbers are useless why do they follow my EGT readings!!! Just my 2 cents.
James

I too have done the same thing, but it only works on a brand new O2 sensor and it only agrees with the EGT's for a few passes until it is contaminated by the racegas (C16 in my case)

Bad O2 = EGT @ 1700+ (oops) and O2's @ 800. Added fuel and EGT's in the low 1600's the O2's were around 810-820.

Change O2 sensor for a brand new one and 1640 EGT's were 760-780 O2's, but only for a few runs and then it starts reading richer even with no changes.

What worries me is the fact that I was running way lean and yet my O2 sensor showed rich. Without the EGT I would have been pulling fuel and trying to get the O2's down and could have damaged my engine.

What is my point? Much like Steve, I don't trust the factory O2 sensor setup unless it is a brand new O2, and you'll only get a couple accurate runs out of it anyways.

 

[Mike Licht]

Clayton,
I could not agree more about the new O2 being the ONLY thing to trust. As far as the EGT thing though in my experience it moves around an awful lot. Perhaps maybe it was my extremely large camshaft (248/248 .670 solid rolller) and low timing but my car loved it at 1710 on the EGT. So the number can be anywhere depending on combination.
Mike Licht

 

[c&cgn]

Originally posted by Mike Licht
Clayton,
I could not agree more about the new O2 being the ONLY thing to trust. As far as the EGT thing though in my experience it moves around an awful lot. Perhaps maybe it was my extremely large camshaft (248/248 .670 solid rolller) and low timing but my car loved it at 1710 on the EGT. So the number can be anywhere depending on combination.
Mike Licht

True, each car is different. I'm still trying to find the sweet spot for my car at this point. So far, my 2 best runs to date have been @ 1638* and 1640* as the max EGT temp. I have lots of playing and testing still to do.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

If you're going to install head sensors why not individual EGT's for each header pipe? Companies like Omega make sensors that will handle multiple EGT readings. They also have software to download to computers as well as synchronization triggers so you know where it started a certain reading. Hook it up to the same reading as your scan tool like TPS and you might be able to in a crude way overlay the profiles in say DS and cylinder EGT. Would be a lot of work but probably worth the effort if serious about tuning to the edge and keeping the motor together.

Hope this helps!

 

[qwknuf6 jr]

Originally posted by azgn
stangbanger, it is good to hear that Red finally figured out how to make a turbo spool.....
I would kill to run in some good air, sometime.......guess I have to move to Ohio or maybe Oregon

I've heard people say Red's chips dont spool turbo's ,NEVER had that problem with any of our local cars .1.4 to 1.5 60 ft times . Will try Reds mass air meter when ready , have a good test mule that has almost the same combo as azgn , but uses a smaller cam(206-206) and the stock mass air meter with no screens , it runs 10.6's @130