Smoking Fast

[tonydee64]

Ok guys, here is one for my leanred Buick brothers.

I have a 532 procharged BBC with a FAST ECU. I just got it back from FAST as I had it converted over to SEFI.

Just for the record I have run 36lb, 83lb, and currently run 160lb. injectors and it didn't make a difference in my problem.

I did run a MSD billet HEI distributor and now I have a MSD pro billet magnetic pickup since there was no available HEI dist. with a cam sync. pickup. I had the ECU converted over to the magnetic pickup and got a new wiring schematic for the magnetic pickup box and made sure the wires are all correctly connected.. and I got it running so I must be ok with the wiring. And all of my sensors seem to always read correctly.

I've also run at least three different sets of plugs and none have really made a difference as far as my problem does.. I currently run NGK 7s (I can't remember the actual numbers at the moment but they are two ranges colder than stock. I also have new plug wires which all checked out ok as far as resistance is concerned.

I also run an MSD 6AL box and have tested it for spark according to MSD instructions and it seems to work fine... I guess.

OK. here we go.. the car has always smoked even with a newly rebuilt motor, the cranking compression is 120 across all cylinders (blower cam and low compression pistons) and the leakdown test showed no more than 2% leakage.

I can take fuel out of the base fuel table until the car dies and it smokes right up to the point when it dies.. the smoke definately smells like gas and spreads all over the neighborhood... it seems to randomly get better and then worse... back and forth... it just doesn't seem to matter really what I do as far as adjusting any of the fuel tables... the car still smokes. And the wide band does go up and down as I add and subtract fuel.

I did take the car out a few weeks ago and drove it about 20 miles. It actually stopped smoking after I drove it for a while.. I drove it home... let it cool off over night... sure enough the next morning it smoked again non-stop.

What do you guys think? Norbs? I think I have some incomplete combustion, weak spark (although it seems pretty strong to me when I test it), or my MSD box isn't working correctly. This smoking problem has existed from the very beginning even though I have had the ECU upgraded to SEFI and am now using a new distributor. For whoever figures this one out I will gladly send you $100. Seriously!!!

 

[Otto J]

do a 30 second or s0 datalog while this is occuring and email it to me with your gct file
Ill see what i can do

 

[HellOnWheels]

intake gasket leaking/blown into valley,
pcv system pulling in oil,
valve seal(s),
ring(s) not seating, cracked or broke,

HOW

 

[norbs]

Is the smoke blue or black?

 

[tonydee64]

The smoke is black. It coats my exhaust tips with a black powdery soot. I've thought about the intake leaking... but the coolant that also runs through the intake doesn't leak for sure. I have sprayed wd40 at the intake gasket (not in the lifter valley of course) with no change whatsoever in idle, etc. The engine does hold 10-12 inches of vacuum at idle even though it has a fairly long duration cam. 254/264 exhaust at .050. There is no PVC on the vehicle nor is there any visible blowby coming out of the valve cover during idle with the cap off. When I was breaking the motor in I used synthetic oil which total seal said is a big no no with their gapless rings.. they said to spray the cylinder walls down with carb. cleaner (which I did) and switch to dino oil until the engine is broke in. If it were rings that didn't seat wouldn't the smoke look blue and smell more like oil? Oh, and the smoke occurs at idle so I doubt the manifold is sucking oil. The valve seals are brand new and all still firmly secured on the perches.

 

[norbs]

I know this sounds crazy, but maybe try a milder cam the overlap could be doing all this

 

[tonydee64]

I hazd a milder cam in it before and it made no difference. I'm thinking about trying to open up my throttle blades at idle to 15% (it's at 8% now) or so that the engine can get some air. I think I may be simply starving the motor for air even though my WBO2 reads 15.94.. a false lean condition. I think I could then go to my base fuel table and remove fuel to get the idle to come back down.. I've got nothing to lose to try it...

 

[norbs]

RUn it in open loop and what are the readings of the a/f at idle?at what a/f does it stall?

 

[tonydee64]

I did that today again and easily had the WB at 15.94 and still kept removing fuel until the car died.. I had 18 in the cell at idle in my base table when it finally died.. still smoked. The smoke definately looked more bluish today but smelled like fuel. I'm starting to think that my FAST box is OK. I did have some trouble with the intake I had made as it was warped when I received it back from Kevin Thomson. I ended up having to have it milled to such an extent that I now have to use two pairs of intake gaskets (one 1/8' set and one 1/16" set) to get it to sit on the heads correctly. I used plenty of gasket sealer on them and like I said before I do not have any water leakage into the lifter valley. I did notice the last time I had the manifold off that I had a small trail of oil in the back two intake tracts which struck me as odd since at that point the car had only idled in the garage. The other thing I'm thinking about is that I had to grind on the heads ever so slightly in order to get the pushrods to not rub.. I can't imagine that I ground anywhere near enough to go through the intake tract wall. Also, keep in mind that the plugs all look the same... black... About three weeks ago we had some decent weather here in Indy so I decided to drive the car over to a guy's shop who has some experience with the FAST ecu as he has it in his race car (Joe Demaree). I drive the car about ten miles to his shop with my wife following behind. She said that the car would smoke a bit when I left a stop sign, then sometimes not at all after I got going. By the time I got to Joe's shop the car was sitting outside his shop idling with not even a trace of smoke present. I drove the car home and didn't notice any smoke at least from the passenger compartment. That is the farthest I have driven the car to date. Of course the next morning the smoke was back as usual.... Maybe I just need to take it out and run the crap out of it....

 

[norbs]

do the plugs look just black, or oil covered? I have had bad experiences with gapless rings the compression maybe good but this doesn't mean the car won't smoke. I changed the rings to speed pro and re honed and never smoked again

 

[tonydee64]

Never ever a hint of oil on the plugs.... I guess I can't figure out why sometimes it smokes... sometimes it doesn't... I'm gonna take it out tomorrow if it doesn't rain.. we'll see what happens..thanks for all of your input!!!

 

[norbs]

Smoking when cold or warm?continous smoke?

 

[tonydee64]

It doesn't really seem to matter if the motor is hot or cold. I just got back in the house from the garage and it smoked so much I would have been embarrased to drive it, so I didn't. I let the car get up to 200 before turning on my fan and it was still smoking.. I don't know.. my tail pipes are black and I smell fuel, and this time the smoke looked more black than blue to me.. but the A/F ratio says it is idling between 13.88 and 14.1 (with smoke bellowing out of the back and the smell of fuel in the air). I'm starting to think that maybe I have a bad plug wire on the side of the motor that does not have the sensor.

 

[Otto J]

TAke off the intake tube and see if its full of oil,Maybe the blower oil seal is blown out,If your a/f it 13-15 to 1 you should not see smoke bellowing out

 

[Louie L.]

In my opinion if the motor had a dead plug wire the car would idle like crap.The FAST would be doing crazy stuff if it was indeed puttin that much fuel into the exhaust. If you had a stuck injector you would be able to see it in the plug and in the O2 correction.

Like the others i believe that the motor has a oil smoke problem and not fuel. Sure the colors may be close , but you cannot go by smell alone. Some smell of fuel even when all else is perfect.

A true end all be all would be to take it to the local dyno place and have them strap their wideband on both tail pipes just at idle. Then compare the readings.

 

[tonydee64]

If it's oil could I really be sucking in that much oil though the intake at idle? (with my long duration cam I still hold 10 inches of vacuum.) The smoke comes pretty quick after start up. I've said from ther beginning it those gapless rings.. Norbs and I spoke last year and he told me that he had problems with them smoking.. my engine builder stated the very same thing... after it started smoking. Perfect Seal told me that they could be havig a hard time sealing.. but to just drive it amd the GUARANTEE me that they will seal.... what do you guys think about that advice. I guess it wouldn't hurt. I guess I might as well try it befire I pull the motor. Like I said before, the one time I took it on a roadtrip trip it had stopped smoking until it cooled back down. Does placing a load on a motor help the rings seat?

Thanks!

 

[norbs]

Rapid burst of acceleration upt to 4000 rpm max i helps seat the rings, but if the cyl wall prep is wrong, they could never seat............put thick oil in there 20/50 and see if there is ANY difference at all, but we still lhavent determined if its burning oil or its gas???????Oil is definite BLUE smoke gas is black Only thing i can suggest is pull a plug , is it DRY sooty, or wet oil covered. P.S i know engine builders who swear by gapless rings, but i am just stating my experience with them, and will not go back to them myself. They maybe more sensitive to the bore finish and seating

 

[Otto J]

I was told that turbo cars can seal the rings in seconds,By standing on hte converter and loading hte car under 15+#s of boost if forces ring seal quickly,But im not sure

 

[tonydee64]

Thanks guys.. tomorrow I'll take it out and run it a bit and see what happens...

 

[BoostKillsStres]

Tony, Since Norbs mentioned we still might not know if its oil or fuel, to check your smoke color to help determine you could, at idle, blip the TPS sensor several times w/o moving the throttle which will command AE and load the engine w/ a decent amount of fuel. During this operation, you could keep an eye out back and see if the smoke changed color or stayed the same and that should nail that part of it down for you.
HTH