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Speed Density and MAT sensor ?

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V6UnderPressure

The Artist FKA Scott4DMny
Joined
May 27, 2001
Messages
2,912
I've read before about relocating the MAT sensor at the up-pipe to get a better accurate reading of the intake air temperature for the DFI systems with the speed density system. I've heard of drastic improvements! Does this hold true for most DFI systems: Accel Gen 6, FAST, FEL-PRO etc? Just curious.

Scott
 
Maybe, depending...

You need to understand how each system is figuring out the amount of fuel to inject.

FAST (aka Fel-Pro & Speed-Pro) calculates the amount of air flow, then uses that air flow to calculate how much fuel to squirt. For the most accurate air flow calculation it needs to know the air temperature in the intake manifold (ie the air the engine is actually ingesting).

The FAST air flow calculation is based on several other things of course - MAP reading, rpm, VE table, engine displacement all come to mind.

DFI 6 does not calculate the air flow at all, it just reads the MAP and the rpm and looks up an injector pw from a table. There is an air temperature correction table, but if that table is zero'ed out then you'll get the same amount of fuel squirted with the air at 80F that you will with air at 250F. In that case putting the air temp sensor in the up pipe won't be any different than having it by the air filter.

Now you can get tricky with the DFI 6, and take advantage of the air temp sensor, have it change the fueling (correctly I might add) with changes in air temperature. I can explain further if you're interested. But I don't think it is typically set up that way.

John
 
Yes that is what I am referring to. I have an Accel Gen. 6 Sequential DFI, and was planning on using the air temperature correction. Just curious how effective it is.

Scott
 
Here's a way to get the DFI 6 to work "right", IMO anyway. Please note: I haven't actually tried this, I do not own a DFI system, so use the following at your own risk. I may just be another internet expert that will show you how to blow up your car! That being said,

The air temperature correction table is % enrichment vs. air temperature.

The idea behind a speed density system is that you calculate air flow from the air density in the intake manifold. If the air density drops 10%, then air flow drops 10% and you need 10% less fuel. DFI 6 doesn't do this automatically (unless this table is filled out correctly). FAST does. I guess DFI 7 does, though I'm not sure. And of course the air temperature you are measuring needs to be the *manifold* air temp, not the outside air temp or the turbo inlet air temp.

If you figure up the air density at 80F and the air density at 120F you find that at 120F the density is 6.9% lower. Therefore if MAP, rpm, etc is all the same, the only difference is the air temperature in the intake, then with a 120F air temperature you'd need to inject 6.9% less fuel. Comprende?

So, what I would suggest, is you pick a "base" temperature. I'll use 80F. If the manifold air temperature is lower that this base, you need to add fuel to account for the higher air density. If the air temperature is hotter than this, you'll have to take fuel out since the manifold air density is lower.

Here's the numbers to use with 80F as the base point:
5F = 16.1%
20F = 12.5%
35F = 9.1%
50F = 5.9%
60F = 3.8%
70F = 1.9%
80F = 0.0%
90F = -1.8%
105F = -4.4%
120F = -6.9%
135F = -9.2%
150F = -11.5%
165F = -13.6%
180F = -15.6%
215F = -20.0%
250F = -24.0%

Now you still have to get your system all dialed in, so that you hit your desired a/f ratio over the range of operation of your engine. But once you do get it all dialed in, going from winter to summer (or vice versa) shouldn't affect your tune.

Initially I would expect the above to screw things up some, esp. this time of year, since it will be pulling some fuel out. If you find your manifold air temps are in the 130F range right now, better add 10% fuel to the main fuel map right off the bat before implementing the above! And if you find yourself rich or lean in spots after filling in this table, don't go back and change the air temp correction table to fix it, change the main fuel table instead!

Once you get it all dialed in again, it will be self compensating. Winter time comes, your MATs drop, and the fueling will automatically increase without you having to touch any maps.

Or, you could figure up the same table using todays temperature as the base (zero) point. Then you wouldn't have to mess with your main table at all, at least in the WOT regions. Probably have to take some out in the cruise and idle areas...

Anyway, I hope you get the gist of the idea and the ramifications involved.

Oh yeah, another point... the above values are based purely on air density differences. If you wanted to run a richer a/f ratio at a higher manifold air temp, those numbers have to be corrected some. Say for safety sake you wanted 11:1 if the air temp is at 165F, while 12:1 is good with the air temp at 80F, then the values in that table above need to be corrected for that. In that case the 165F correction factor, -13.6%, would need to be -5.8% instead, ie not pulling out as much fuel, so leaving the mixture a bit richer.

AND, I guess I should note that cold start problems would need to be addressed in one of the afterstart enrichment tables, rather than here.

I think that's it... let me know if you have any questions.

John
 
FWIW, I've used several different codes for SD systems, with a given ecm.

Using a true Gas Law Formula, is the best answer.
Period.

Using MAT sensing in the plenum, is the only way to fly if you really want things CORRECT.

But, there's alot of inertia for not wanting to fix anything unless it's broke.

And if you look at the Accel Gen VII they use true MAT, CTS, and an actual Intake Manifold temp input. Hmmmm.
 
The Gen 6 DFI is not a "true" speed/density ecu. The Air Correction Table is used so the O2 sensor doesn't work to hard making fuel adjustment in changing air temperature. You just add or subtract the fuel depending on the air temp.

The table that John listed above should work. However, Bruce is totally correct about the Gas Law Formula. There's alot of variables that need to be know, besides air temp, for the ecu to make a true S/D calculation. Unfortunately, the Gen 6 DFI wasn't designed around this formula.


BTW - Scott here is a link to the Accel DFI EMIC training manual. Some good info in there to help with the setup and tuning.

http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
 
When I did it, I was using it to take fuel out on the big end. You will heat soak the IC going down the track. I would see an 80deg rise in temp and use that to take fuel out. The problem with that is the scale on the air temp corrrection table.
 
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