Stage 1 vs Stage 2

[BUICKTR]

Is it worth the build of a Stage 1 with good internals to run in the mid or high 9's or just go Stage 2. How much more will the cost of building a Stage 2 compared to Stage 1?? Another question how about building a Stage 1 with stock turbo cranks, forge pistons and stock rods will it hold up in the 9's without falling apart. I know my friend Todd King ran a Stage 1 with stock crank and went 133 mph with no problems before going with his new motor. Any people running these blocks or know more about them I'll appreciate your opinions or experience. Thanks!

 

[TurboTR]

Well a 2 steel cap stock block can run in the mid 130's too, like Ryan Guy, Terry Ryan, etc have done. I think Ryan's car went several seasons in the low 10's and high 9's without even a teardown. It depends on what you want to do of course. Run mid/low 10's? Stick with your 2 steel cap stock block combo and put the extra cash in the bank.

One very compelling reason to go with a 4.1 stg block is to get more cubes. Stg 1 blocks are off center. A downside to stg 1 is 2 bolt caps, and the stock location oil pickup presents problems in converting. Stg 2 blocks come in either flavor. Many have run off center into the very fast zone, but IMO at the high power levels going on center maybe buys some peace of mind and some reduced rod bearing wear. As well as 4 bolt steel caps and some cross bolting. So IMO if you are going to bother at all in the 1st place and try to get the best shortblock you can, might as well take the time and effort to go 274" stg 2 on center.

If you really plan to go mid 9's in a heavy street car you'll likely want a big cube stg 2 on center, again, if you are going to bother to try and do it "right" in the 1st place. There are some decent buys that pop up on the trader every so often

JMO.

TurboTR

 

[TurboJeff231]

S1 and S2 blocks are made from the same casting. The s2 is stronger because it has better main caps. There are some very fast guys running s1 blocks. Ricardo Lacosta was using a 4.1 S1 block W/M&A heads and going 9.80's I beleive.

If you can get a deal on a S1 block......buy it!!

TJ

 

[Eticket]

Someone always writes to "buy a car already done!"...so here I am.... I agree with Todd K. on all points.. except.. I think it's really hard to go some low/mid 10's @130+on a 3.8 setup unless #1.. you know alot (like the guys that are doing it) and #2 your car 60ft's and isn't too heavy. This is just an opinion of course because MOST guys just dont' go that fast.

Reasons why it's tough to go Mid/low 10's.. I think Todd will agree?

1. You have to be handy with a computer for tuning.
2. Not cheap... to max out a combo you need a really good turbo/long block/and FAST/DFI setup.
3. Perfect transmission (this may mean changing to a T400).
4. Good 60 ft's. How many of us really 60ft in the mid 1.4's.

In no way do I think you can't do it.. I just think only the most advanced guys will ever get there.

Thanks
John

 

[TurboTR]

Well in the end, on stock cranked 3.8L and about 26-30 psi, depending on heads and all they seem to go in the high 120's to low 130'ish range no matter what ecu is in place, assuming the tune is good.

The guys mentioned above from OR were doing it on stock ecu with stock or modded MAF setup, at least for awhile. Very impressive. And 200r4, footbraking. T72'ish turbos. Some standard weight reduction stuff. There are some other impressive 3.8L cars around the country that we haven't mentioned here of course.

To me the the thing is, once you get away from the stock crank and put in a rare, expensive, forged stroker arm and good rods and all, you start thinking about helping it all live too and it tends to snowball Which often means you'd like to also have a strong *ss block too, a FAST system, steady C16 diet, etc

TurboTR

 

[86brick]

Originally posted by TurboTR
Well in the end, on stock cranked 3.8L and about 26-30 psi, depending on heads and all they seem to go in the high 120's to low 130'ish range no matter what ecu is in place, assuming the tune is good.

The guys mentioned above from OR were doing it on stock ecu with stock or modded MAF setup, at least for awhile. Very impressive. And 200r4, footbraking. T72'ish turbos. Some standard weight reduction stuff. There are some other impressive 3.8L cars around the country that we haven't mentioned here of course.

To me the the thing is, once you get away from the stock crank and put in a rare, expensive, forged stroker arm and good rods and all, you start thinking about helping it all live too and it tends to snowball Which often means you'd like to also have a strong *ss block too, a FAST system, steady C16 diet, etc

TurboTR

Bill from Champion has a stock TTA crank and factory rods in his Stage 1 motor (they were in his stock block motor that went 9.74 @134mph) that has been running in the mid to high 9 second range for some time now and he hasn't had any problems.... Also, my buddy saw this car at the Bradenton event and from what he said it is pretty much a full interior full weight car with no AC that weighs around 3500-3600lbs w/ driver and he has been as fast as 9.40's @143mph from what I was told.... Sure a Billet or BMS forged crank is stronger, but the stock crank is stronger than most would like to admit IMHO!

 

[S2V6RACER]

I would stick to a stock block, girdled if you are looking for low 10's or even high 9's. If you build a stage motor, don't do a stage I block go all the way with the stage II. It won't cost you much more if any for a decent stage II block, and the rest of the parts cost the same when you are talking rods and cranks.

I have a stage II block, steel crank, carillo rods if you are interested.

E-mail me if you want.

Ted

 

[BUICKTR]

TED A.

Thanks Ted I'll keep that in mine. That is a great MPH and ET for a stock block. How long has your block survived and that power level? What turbo did you have to use to accomplish that time. I will be using a PT 70 with Champion Iron heads and of course all the other goodies.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Still in one piece and on the stand. I used a PT-76 for those times, but that is a little big and not really neccesary.

The car had 10 teens in it, but I only made 6 runs after the convertor change and that netted the best times I listed, but not 60's.