Sway Bars for cars with Handling as a goal?

[sullen]

I know, I know.

HR Rear bar..

But is this the best option when the goal is cornering opposed to straight line/launches??

Would like to hear some reviews of the bars available for our cars from the guys building the "pro touring" style cars rather than the 1/4 mile beasts.

How about front bars as well??

 

[charlief1]

For the front and rear bars, what are your goals? Are you trying to do an honest 1.2 G's on the skid pad?

 

[jlat]

hello people; As far as front bars (I don't know) but get some good shocks,springs,those poly end link and sway bar bushings and see what that does do fa ya. Then go for the stiffeners the aftermarket sell. Tires and wheels got to be considered also. But good luck and do tell what you cum up with.
IBBY
forgot to say all that stuff might change you ride quality.But if your young you'll like it!

 

[T-CHRGD]

Some good info here:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/br...heels/309846-spohn-bmr-hr-anti-roll-bars.html

 

[sullen]

thanks t-chrgd, you have a nice setup i saw from the "making a gbody handle" thread.
that spohn pro touring bar looks like it might be the way to go, i think that's going to be my next mod for the GN.

been learning alot on pro-touring.com today too, didn't realize there was that much gbody info there.

 

[Turbo6inKY]

The stock bars are adequate. Going bigger for handling is simply compensating for poor spring and shock choice, in my not so humble opinion.

Bigger in front is going to make it push and ride like crap.
Bigger in rear is going to bind it up and cause snap oversteer in transition (think slalom).

Fix the front suspension geometry with taller ball joints and get some stiffer springs. Throw the cargo coils in the back with new rubber bushings, get some quality shocks, and some good tires. The difference is night and day.

You don't need to do anything with the bars if you're trying to make it turn corners.

This car has stock bars on it:
YouTube - Buick Grand National Autocross

It's mine. It handles quite well for what it is, and as you can see, there's very little body roll.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Check out the Edelbrock Pro-Touring kit, it is one bad @$$ kit and pretty on top of it. I believe it was car craft that installed one on a Monte SS and it made a DRAMATIC difference. Many out there will tell you the stock bar/bushings are fine and that new ones/poly wont make a difference. The people that say that are the ones who don't want to justify spending extra money for handling. Let's face it, most of the people on here are concerned with nothing but straight line performance. That's great for the drag strip, but considering my car will be mostly driven on the street, a pro-touring setup is my goal. See the last line in my sig, that says it all.

Don't forget, hollow bars also shave weight.

 

[86GN-862+2]

The stock bars are adequate. Going bigger for handling is simply compensating for poor spring and shock choice, in my not so humble opinion.

Bigger in front is going to make it push and ride like crap.
Bigger in rear is going to bind it up and cause snap oversteer in transition (think slalom).

Fix the front suspension geometry with taller ball joints and get some stiffer springs. Throw the cargo coils in the back with new rubber bushings, get some quality shocks, and some good tires. The difference is night and day.

You don't need to do anything with the bars if you're trying to make it turn corners.

This car has stock bars on it:
YouTube - Buick Grand National Autocross

It's mine. It handles quite well for what it is, and as you can see, there's very little body roll.

Cool beans! I never thought of the S-10 parts except for spindles. Duh! My car handles like crap and is soft as a Caddy... body roll is excessive. I need to try this when I get some extra cash flow.:biggrin:

 

[jlat]

hello people; Turbo6in Ky. Could you talk more on your set up? It looks dialed in. Is that a compitition with similar cars or do you just run against yourself? Nice run.
thanks
IBBY

 

[sullen]

The stock bars are adequate. Going bigger for handling is simply compensating for poor spring and shock choice, in my not so humble opinion.

Bigger in front is going to make it push and ride like crap.
Bigger in rear is going to bind it up and cause snap oversteer in transition (think slalom).

Fix the front suspension geometry with taller ball joints and get some stiffer springs. Throw the cargo coils in the back with new rubber bushings, get some quality shocks, and some good tires. The difference is night and day.

You don't need to do anything with the bars if you're trying to make it turn corners.

This car has stock bars on it:
YouTube - Buick Grand National Autocross

It's mine. It handles quite well for what it is, and as you can see, there's very little body roll.

Tell me more about your full setup.

I've already put eibach springs and bilstein shocks on all corners, upgraded the front brakes, and have GTAs.
It already handles night and day difference from when i got it bone stock.
I'm trying to take the next step in making the car handle as good as possible, maybe I should rebuild the front suspension before I do sway bars.
I did read alot that mark from sc&c wrote on another forum, and i see the importance on the front now.

 

[sullen]

Check out the Edelbrock Pro-Touring kit, it is one bad @$$ kit and pretty on top of it. I believe it was car craft that installed one on a Monte SS and it made a DRAMATIC difference. Many out there will tell you the stock bar/bushings are fine and that new ones/poly wont make a difference. The people that say that are the ones who don't want to justify spending extra money for handling. Let's face it, most of the people on here are concerned with nothing but straight line performance. That's great for the drag strip, but considering my car will be mostly driven on the street, a pro-touring setup is my goal. See the last line in my sig, that says it all.

Don't forget, hollow bars also shave weight.

i agree 110% :biggrin:
same goal for my car.

the only thing is i already have springs/shocks/struts so a kit is out for me.
i will take a look at the rest of the edelbrock stuff tho!

 

[charlief1]

The stock bars are adequate. Going bigger for handling is simply compensating for poor spring and shock choice, in my not so humble opinion.

Bigger in front is going to make it push and ride like crap.
Bigger in rear is going to bind it up and cause snap oversteer in transition (think slalom).

Fix the front suspension geometry with taller ball joints and get some stiffer springs. Throw the cargo coils in the back with new rubber bushings, get some quality shocks, and some good tires. The difference is night and day.

You don't need to do anything with the bars if you're trying to make it turn corners.

This car has stock bars on it:
YouTube - Buick Grand National Autocross

It's mine. It handles quite well for what it is, and as you can see, there's very little body roll.

Your car handles fairly well but you still have some understeer on the car. Not being a hater here, but there are a few tricks you can use to get rid of it and still keep the ride you like. Shorten the front sway bar links some and you'll get less nose dive effect. The shorter links will make the bar react quicker and help you.

 

[T-CHRGD]

I've already put eibach springs and bilstein shocks on all corners, upgraded the front brakes, and have GTAs.
It already handles night and day difference from when i got it bone stock.
I'm trying to take the next step in making the car handle as good as possible, maybe I should rebuild the front suspension before I do sway bars.
I did read alot that mark from sc&c wrote on another forum, and i see the importance on the front now.

As you can see there are many opinions. I don't believe there is any One right answer. Everyone here (including me) has what they think is the best set-up, and it IS -- For Them ! :biggrin:
I think you have the Best start with the springs and shocks. I think your next best investment might be Tall ball joints and SPC adjustable upper A-arms. (Just my opinion)
The springs, shocks, and now the tall ball joints and adjustable upper A-arms are parts I do not forsee ever changing in the future (except of course for wear) The shocks Might be the only exception, when they bring out the Quad adjustables (if they haven't already), but that would also require good luck in the lottery.
Swaybars, on the other hand, are the parts I have changed the most often, and will probably continue to do. Thankfully, it's also the Easiest thing to do. :biggrin: Before I went to the Watts Link and the Spohn Pro-Touring rear bar, I had several different combos of swaybars. Long ago, when I used to autocross, I ran heavier front and rear bars. (I believe a heavier front bar is Not a bad thing - the car Is front heavy ) When I broke the rear bar, I put the stock rear bar on and I think the car felt better - more balanced. I ran that set-up for a long time. I then went with an F-body 36mm hollow front bar (weight savings), but that didn't last long, Only because the SC&C heavy duty front frame brace would not fit with the big droop in the middle of the F-body bar. I now have the Spohn front bar also (I figured since I have their rear bar ...), but I can't say it will stay that way.
I have Not ruled out the HR rear bar (since it Is hollow), but I don't know if it will fit with the Watts Link axle mounts (and since I really don't think you need a heavy rear bar for best Handling), but I think if you are considering Any time at the Strip you should look at the HR bar. I would also love to get a splined front bar, If (Big if) and when I get the SPC tubular Lower A-arms.
Now that you are Really confused ..........
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

John

 

[jlat]

hello people; I was thinking about racing and things and in racing there are always things that people won't tell. Not that this is the case but in RC and in karting it was my experience there are things you learn in time and there are things that people won't tell. I think that's racing everywhere. Don't ask what my experiences were as it was years ago. And then there's the "how fast do you want to go is how much you want to spend" line that I've heard a few times. There are people that are open and then there are people that are tight lipped.
All this BS has nothing to do with this thread
IBBY
beautiful weather this easter weekend here in Mass.

 

[Turbo6inKY]

Your car handles fairly well but you still have some understeer on the car. Not being a hater here, but there are a few tricks you can use to get rid of it and still keep the ride you like. Shorten the front sway bar links some and you'll get less nose dive effect. The shorter links will make the bar react quicker and help you.

Good eye, it does still understeer at the limit. The understeer it currently has could easily be dialed out with a more aggressive front alignment. I still have it toed in 1/16" to cut down on tire wear.

hello people; Turbo6in Ky. Could you talk more on your set up? It looks dialed in. Is that a compitition with similar cars or do you just run against yourself? Nice run.
thanks
IBBY

It's an SCCA Solo II autocross. Cars are classed according to make/model and modifications. I can't say I win, but I'm never last, which is a big accomplishment considering my GN ends up in SSM with much newer (and lighter) vehicles.

My setup is pretty simple:
Energy Suspension 3.18110 Poly Master Kit
OEM Rubber chassis side rear trailing arm bushings
Moog 5660 Front spring (639 lb/in)
Moog CC651 Rear cargo coils (progressive rate)
Pole Position 9200M adjustable upper A arms
Upper Ball joints from a 1982 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup truck
Bilstein B36-0949 Front shocks
Bilstein B46-0929 Rear shocks
Wilwood 140-2508-B front brake kit
Stock Swaybars
Bridgestone Potenza RE750 245/50R16 tires

Now, the Pole Position arms apparently are not available anymore. No worries. gbodyparts.com's tubular arms and a set of Howe tall ball joints will actually work better. I put my car together before those parts were easily available.

Many out there will tell you the stock bar/bushings are fine and that new ones/poly wont make a difference.

Nobody's saying they won't make a difference. They will. I'm just saying that bars aren't necessary in most instances. The Edelbrock kit, being a one-and-done box of parts comes with bars, springs, and that match. If you go that route, by all means put the whole kit on.

But if you're looking for parts to make your car handle better but aren't interested in dropping $1500 on the kit, replace your springs, shocks, and tires first and see where they get you, THEN start thinking about swaybars. You may end up like me and be perfectly happy with it.

And if you have the money, get a Watts Link. My car is severely hampered by the stock four link at this point. When you get into a slalom, you can feel the rear swaying around and pushing the car places it doesn't need to go. The stock high roll center really makes a mess of things.

 

[jasonlachapelle]

Moog 5660 Front spring (639 lb/in)
Moog CC651 Rear cargo coils (progressive rate)
.

Just curious what made you go for the CC651s vice CC627 ? this chart shows the cc561s to be slightly "softer." I realize the advertised spring rate only shows the initial rate because they are both progressive springs.

 

[Gary Wells]

The factory front sway bar is plenty big enough. The rear one is a different story. I currently run:
Bilsteins on all 4 corners, Kirban's 20% stiffer factory height front & rear springs, Savitske Classic & Custom fully adjustable lightweight front Uppers with the good bushings recommended by Mark S, Howe Precision tall Upper & lower control ball joints, all of Kirban's suspension stiffeners, 16" TTA front rims. Currently I believe that I am running a Global West rear sway bar, I believe about 7/8", a little too small diameter for the stiffness that I want. I did have a 1 3/8" dia rear sway bar that was much better. The only reason that I am niot running a HRParts&Stuff or clones rear sway bar is I do not care for how close it is to the ground.

 

[Turbo6inKY]

Just curious what made you go for the CC651s vice CC627 ? this chart shows the cc561s to be slightly "softer." I realize the advertised spring rate only shows the initial rate because they are both progressive springs.

The CC651 was a the catalog cargo coil for the car, so I tried them first. They've worked well enough so far.

Looking at the chart, with the stiffer rate and the longer free length, the CC627 would likely end up jacking the rear end of the car up at least half an inch in the back.

 

[Gary Wells]

The factory front sway bar is plenty big enough. The rear one is a different story. I currently run:
Bilsteins on all 4 corners, Kirban's 20% stiffer factory height front & rear springs, Savitske Classic & Custom fully adjustable lightweight front Uppers with the good bushings recommended by Mark S, Howe Precision tall Upper & lower control ball joints, all of Kirban's suspension stiffeners, 16" TTA front rims. Currently I believe that I am running a Global West rear sway bar, I believe about 7/8", a little too small diameter for the stiffness that I want. I did have a 1 3/8" dia rear sway bar that was much better. The only reason that I am niot running a HRParts&Stuff or clones rear sway bar is I do not care for how close it is to the ground.

Forgot to mention in my post above that in the rear I am running the BMR fully adjustable rear control arms with the factory rubber at the rear and the spherical bearings / bushings at the front, and for the lowers I am running the Global West control arms with the spherical bearings / bushings at both ends. I will be going back to the ATR replica rear 1 3/8" sway bar when I can.