Timing with e85... conservative or aggressive?

[Grand_87_national]

Hello, all. I'd like to ask about timing with e85 because I'm reading both ends of the spectrum here. Currently, my chip is tuned at 22*/22*, and I've not changed it, ever. I've been told that e85 needs more timing and that 22* is too conservative. I've also read that e85 doesn't benefit from more timing as much as it benefits from more boost, and that 20*-22* is all you need. I've read about people going as aggressive as 26* in 1st and 2nd, that sounds awful high to me. Perhaps 23* or 24* might be a place to shoot for in 1st and 2nd? Ideally, I'm going to make adjustments and see what it does to my trap speed, but I won't be able to get out to the track until next spring. Right now I'm at 23 psi, but I have enough fuel for more, so I'll probably be shooting for the 26 psi range, providing this turbo is still efficient at that level. Thanks for any advice!

 

[Mr.Spool]

Thanks for any advice!

ultimately you must learn to read the plugs.generally one will get more power out of more boost (unless you are out of turbo)than timing.here is an example increasing boost can net say 20hp per lb of boost,while timing may only get you 8 to 10hp.airflow/compression is the key to power but you must keep detonation away.

 

[Grand_87_national]

ultimately you must learn to read the plugs.generally one will get more power out of more boost (unless you are out of turbo)than timing.here is an example increasing boost can net say 20hp per lb of boost,while timing may only get you 8 to 10hp.airflow/compression is the key to power but you must keep detonation away.

Sounds like a plan, I'll probably pull the plugs this weekend if I have some spare time.

 

[VtheGNMan]

I too am interested in this. I hope Bison will chime in. I read on his facebook page where he said that 80% of the E85 cars he has tuned has had too much timing.
I need to spend some time with my car on a test and tune weekend so I haven't done much more than just drive it with low boost and go to shows now that it's back on the road.
I plan on verifying the car's timing before starting to tune as maybe that is half the problem. Or a lot of people are adding in more than the chip's base timing and he is having to pull timing back out.

 

[BEATAV8]

The hardware will ultimately determine how far you can go. Each setup has its own limits.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Sounds like a plan, I'll probably pull the plugs this weekend if I have some spare time.

its all in the tune.

 

[Grand_87_national]

The hardware will ultimately determine how far you can go. Each setup has its own limits.

Wow. 30 psi @ 23*?! What turbo?

 

[bison]

You need to tune to the low end of the timing window for longevity. 22 might be correct. It may be low, it may be high.


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[Grand_87_national]

You need to tune to the low end of the timing window for longevity. 22 might be correct. It may be low, it may be high.


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And the best way to find out is: reading plugs or reading trap speed? Or both? Certainly don't want to hurt the life of the engine, but would like to make sure I'm not leaving power/ efficiency on the table.

 

[bison]

And the best way to find out is: reading plugs or reading trap speed? Or both? Certainly don't want to hurt the life of the engine, but would like to make sure I'm not leaving power/ efficiency on the table.

Most people don't know how to read plugs and doing so with a hot turbo engine at a drag strip isn't usually going to happen. The quickest way I've found is using a Dyno. You can pull or add timing in small increments and see what happens. If your in the safe zone there won't be much difference in power. Still takes a baseline knowledge to get started.


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[forcefed3.8's]

E85 doesnt ned as much timing as gas. I have lifted heads on 109s running the timing that many think is safe. I like to run on the conservative side unless chasing a number. Every car is different start low and sneak up on it.

 

[turbo89]

Hello, all. I'd like to ask about timing with e85 because I'm reading both ends of the spectrum here. Currently, my chip is tuned at 22*/22*, and I've not changed it, ever. I've been told that e85 needs more timing and that 22* is too conservative. I've also read that e85 doesn't benefit from more timing as much as it benefits from more boost, and that 20*-22* is all you need. I've read about people going as aggressive as 26* in 1st and 2nd, that sounds awful high to me. Perhaps 23* or 24* might be a place to shoot for in 1st and 2nd? Ideally, I'm going to make adjustments and see what it does to my trap speed, but I won't be able to get out to the track until next spring. Right now I'm at 23 psi, but I have enough fuel for more, so I'll probably be shooting for the 26 psi range, providing this turbo is still efficient at that level. Thanks for any advice!

Nobody can answer this for you except YOU

The car will tell you what it likes.. Learn to read plugs and watch how the car reacts.. datalogg and adjust accordingly.. EVERY car is different.. Some like 24-26 degrees and pickup.. Others only tolerate 20 and gain nothing above that

Just be aware .. When you are seeing Knock with E85 .. You've gone way way too far.. It does not knock easily

 

[BEATAV8]

Wow. 30 psi @ 23*?! What turbo?

6766

 

[MikeL.]

IMO the easiest plugs to read where you can clearly see the 'timing mark' for lack of a better term are the NGK's. Depending on which way the mark moves on the ground strap indicates how much heat is in the cylinder. Like Bison said, if no dyno is around, then this is another option.

 

[belsie]

Seems plugs w/ e-85 like a tighter gap (25- 28) to avoid pop & miss! As we experiment with this where is the "don't go there range" as we play w / E-85 realizing that all cars are different? As with gas some like to be pig rich to prevent surprises, does this apply to E-85? We all are learning this fuel so all results & advice are appreciated!!!

 

[forcefed3.8's]

I always run on the rich side, even with gas. I ran a TE63E into the 9s last year with AFR at 10.6 gas scale. It made great power even rich. Power falls off faster lean than rich.

 

[turbo89]

I always run on the rich side, even with gas. I ran a TE63E into the 9s last year with AFR at 10.6 gas scale. It made great power even rich. Power falls off faster lean than rich.

Just depends on what you wanna leave on the table right

To some guys 50 hp on a 1000 hp setup is the end of the world .. to others .. the 50 you leave on the table is immaterial ..

I've never seen a C16 car like to be run @ 10.6 .. I would think it would be a pig running it that fat all through the run ... I could see in the lower range as it helps torq curve ..

Goes to show All cars are different and there is no 1 size fits all tune

 

[Mr.Spool]

And the best way to find out is: reading plugs

reading the plugs is the best way to see what is going on inside the chamber for each cylinder.wot hit then shut the car off pull all plugs,then you will have the really good questions

 

[Mr.Spool]

does this apply to E-85? We all are learning this fuel so all results & advice are appreciated!!!

it would be wise to read the plugs and put the time in,the answers are not always on the internet.each car is different,different builds,more compression, less compression,different heads,etc.need to see whats happening in your motor then tune from there.

 

[VtheGNMan]

IMO the easiest plugs to read where you can clearly see the 'timing mark' for lack of a better term are the NGK's. Depending on which way the mark moves on the ground strap indicates how much heat is in the cylinder. Like Bison said, if no dyno is around, then this is another option.

Timing mark?