TR-6 Causing detonation at same timing as stock ignition?

[NY Twin Turbo]

In talking to Helo I took it that the pressure in the line is the same (when system is activated ) and the knob only controls the ramp up time to the full on.

He said in my case it should be 110 pounds.

Just to clarify. The pressure in the alky system is never the same. Meaning it starts off low and goes to high as boost increases.

Actually, it bounces around like a Richter Scale on cocaine.

If your alky "should" be around 110 PSI, then this means, at the boost you run, and the nozzle you have, and in the current tune it's in, 110 PSI is just about right for you and you alone.

 

[Pronto]

There used to be an alky kit that had a surge surppressor attached to the unit. It was about the size of a test tube. I tried to find the part number for it but no one that used to sell the kit had it. After using the tester and seeing how much fluctuation there is in the pressure I often wondered if that was a negative.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

There used to be an alky kit that had a surge surppressor attached to the unit. It was about the size of a test tube. I tried to find the part number for it but no one that used to sell the kit had it. After using the tester and seeing how much fluctuation there is in the pressure I often wondered if that was a negative.

Not a bad idea!

Something like an accumulator To absorb the pulse shocks.

We should take this discussion into the Alki Forum. Maybe Julio will join In?

Definitely an easy experiment to perform. Just a couple of fittings and a canister. I guess the trick would be how big does the canister need to be to smooth out the pulse shocks.

 

[pacecarta]

you guys are bouncing around but still not there ...
now another fly in the mix the surge

its pretty much a given pump will come on at about 6psi (2.0v) and when pump comes on it isnt a smooth flow ..the pump has three valves and basically three chambers with a triangular diaphragm plate that gets stiff from the meth exposure .. they can and do create a pulse ..that pressure can show 0 (theres still alky spray at 0) then the the pulse can be over 50psi between one good valve and one that hasnt seated yet ..with time iit will eventually smooth out as the valves in the pump head flexes and conforms to the seat, i see this surge every time i start a pump and sometimes it can take up to a minute at full flow to clear up the surge ..longer in cold weather .
.imop this test should be done before every race as most cars sit and can watch your alky press logs on the first pass be choppy and then smooth out by the end of the run and then be just fine on the next pass .. you can do this test with razors alky tester
a simple way to stop the surge (well not stop it but get past it ) is take the hose off nozzle put it in bucket and turn the key on and connect a jumper from the map 5v(grey pin A ) to the map out (green pin C) and run the pump for a minute to work the valves in

now on the gain knob ..
when you boost the area that needed most adjustment was the transition at 15psi boost where alky needed to come in harder because most chips were done at that point so you have a gain knob to tweak that area in
if you set map sensor simulator in test kit set at 15psi and change the gain dial from 5 to 8 you can see in an increase pressure at nozzle as much as 30 psi and thats where having the knob full can hurt spoolup because of too much alky is coming in at low rpm vs the amount of fuel needed that AF goes fat and car feels flat ..dial it back and you can raise the af to where car is responsive
now you have knob at 5 and the alky pressure is around 75psi at 15psi boost and the spool is good ..the alky will progressively increase with map pressure but i assure you that at around 22 psi the alky pressure will just about reach max pressure and you can increase the map to 30psi and dial the gain knob up and down and will see very little change in the max alky pressure you had at 22psi
like i said get the tester from razor .. adjust the map simulator in the kit and play with the gain and youll see what i mean .
you can also use the tester to help dial in the boost vs pressure curve on launch using the dials inside the pac box and then see your results in your log

 

[RUQWKNF]

Now that ^^^^^ is what I'd call VERY helpful tuning / dialing in information.
That explains a ton about what I've seen with my recent tuning / playing around.
Thank you pacecarta, I really appreciate that tid bit, as I'm still a noob at alky + pump gas tuning.

VP C-16 tuning? No sweat. BTDT.
Alky and 93 pump gas tuning? Yeah... That's a whole other ball game.

-Patrick-

 

[Pronto]

Here's some pics of the accumulator. I see your point about getting the pump to get settled so it's not surging but how do you do that if you're just driving around and then go to boost?

 

[murphster]

See posts 7, 13, 14 for more info on alky settings...

https://turbobuick.com/threads/launching-w-alky-and-2-step.329474/

 

[captrob]

Wonder if some kind of simple pulse damper would work? Works great on small aircraft fuel systems.
http://www.matronics.com/fuelchec/damper.html

 

[michael evans]

If your alky "should" be around 110 PSI, then this means, at the boost you run, and the nozzle you have, and in the current tune it's in, 110 PSI is just about right for you and you alone.

No, it was my understanding that if you (or anyone else) has a twin nozzle ("10" and "15") and runs straight M1 like me has 110 pounds of pressure at the back of the first nozzle like me.

 

[michael evans]

.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

No, it was my understanding that if you (or anyone else) has a twin nozzle ("10" and "15") and runs straight M1 like me has 110 pounds of pressure at the back of the first nozzle like me.

I'm not sure where the 110 PSI is supposed to be. Do you mean that for everyone running the set-up you describe, at 15 lbs of boost, the alky should be at 110? Or at 20 lbs? How about 30 lbs?

And what about the guy who's set-up requires more or less gain at lower boost levels before the pump is "all-in"?

You see my point? Generally speaking, some rules apply across the big picture for all alky users. But not specific alky pressures at any boost level for everyone. If your tuner set you up and gave you a number that he wants you to keep an eye on, then that's your number. But it may not be everyone's.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

now you have knob at 5 and the alky pressure is around 75psi at 15psi boost and the spool is good ..the alky will progressively increase with map pressure but i assure you that at around 22 psi the alky pressure will just about reach max pressure and you can increase the map to 30psi and dial the gain knob up and down and will see very little change in the max alky pressure you had at 22psi

So then, I guess my layman's translation to Tyler was accurate then?

I finally might be getting better with this shit after all.

 

[Pronto]

Wonder if some kind of simple pulse damper would work? Works great on small aircraft fuel systems.
http://www.matronics.com/fuelchec/damper.html
View attachment 324849

It's not rated for the pressures in the Alkycontrol system...

 

[michael evans]

I'm not sure where the 110 PSI is supposed to be. Do you mean that for everyone running the set-up you describe, at 15 lbs of boost, the alky should be at 110? Or at 20 lbs? How about 30 lbs?

And what about the guy who's set-up requires more or less gain at lower boost levels before the pump is "all-in"?

You see my point? Generally speaking, some rules apply across the big picture for all alky users. But not specific alky pressures at any boost level for everyone. If your tuner set you up and gave you a number that he wants you to keep an eye on, then that's your number. But it may not be everyone's.

Helo said that number his self not my tuner (he set the knob at six).
You will have to ask him where the 110 PSI comes in.

My guess is at “all in”.

If the kit is set to come on at 5 psi boost then it might take six seconds (guess) to get to “all in”.

 

[marleyskater420]

you guys are bouncing around but still not there ...
now another fly in the mix the surge

its pretty much a given pump will come on at about 6psi (2.0v) and when pump comes on it isnt a smooth flow ..the pump has three valves and basically three chambers with a triangular diaphragm plate that gets stiff from the meth exposure .. they can and do create a pulse ..that pressure can show 0 (theres still alky spray at 0) then the the pulse can be over 50psi between one good valve and one that hasnt seated yet ..with time iit will eventually smooth out as the valves in the pump head flexes and conforms to the seat, i see this surge every time i start a pump and sometimes it can take up to a minute at full flow to clear up the surge ..longer in cold weather .
.imop this test should be done before every race as most cars sit and can watch your alky press logs on the first pass be choppy and then smooth out by the end of the run and then be just fine on the next pass .. you can do this test with razors alky tester
a simple way to stop the surge (well not stop it but get past it ) is take the hose off nozzle put it in bucket and turn the key on and connect a jumper from the map 5v(grey pin A ) to the map out (green pin C) and run the pump for a minute to work the valves in

now on the gain knob ..
when you boost the area that needed most adjustment was the transition at 15psi boost where alky needed to come in harder because most chips were done at that point so you have a gain knob to tweak that area in
if you set map sensor simulator in test kit set at 15psi and change the gain dial from 5 to 8 you can see in an increase pressure at nozzle as much as 30 psi and thats where having the knob full can hurt spoolup because of too much alky is coming in at low rpm vs the amount of fuel needed that AF goes fat and car feels flat ..dial it back and you can raise the af to where car is responsive
now you have knob at 5 and the alky pressure is around 75psi at 15psi boost and the spool is good ..the alky will progressively increase with map pressure but i assure you that at around 22 psi the alky pressure will just about reach max pressure and you can increase the map to 30psi and dial the gain knob up and down and will see very little change in the max alky pressure you had at 22psi
like i said get the tester from razor .. adjust the map simulator in the kit and play with the gain and youll see what i mean .
you can also use the tester to help dial in the boost vs pressure curve on launch using the dials inside the pac box and then see your results in your log

Thank you so much for this response!!

Just so I am clear in my understanding, you are saying that regardless if I have the alky gain knob at 5 or 8psi, once the map pressure is around 22psi the alky system will have reached max pressure?

Once the system reaches max pressure, that will be the largest volume of alky the system will provide, unless we change the nozzle size to allow for an increase in flow?

Since the alky system will reach max flow at roughly 22psi, regardless of whether the gain knob is set to 5 or 8, when tuning the car you want to adjust the gain knob so that when the alky system does hit max flow it does not cause a surge and cause a "fat spot" on the AFR table? So we would set the gain knob at whatever the car likes so that there is no "fat spot" when max pressure from the alky system is reached? And basically regardless of whether we have the system at 5 or 8 on the gain knob, the alky system will ultimately have the same max flow? Is that correct? The gain knob is there more to adjust the alky flow at around 15psi to smooth the transition in the AFR table for when the alky is now at max flow? But regardless of what we set the dial to, once we reach about 22psi, the alky pump will flow the MAX that it is capable of, whether we have the gain knob set to 4, or 5, or 8?

Am I correct in understanding that basically the gain knob is more for tuning the amount of alky at around 15psi?

Depending where the gain knobs inside the black box are set, (which control the rate of ramp and what psi the system will start to turn on at) which ultimately determine what psi and how fast the alky system reaches the max flow, once the "max flow" psi is reached which is typically 15psi from what you are saying, and the gain knob is used to lower or raise the amount of alky that is flowing into the engine at this 15psi area?

But the alky system will increase the flow of alky into the engine as the map pressure increases? Although REGARDLESS of what the setting on the gain dial is set at, the alky system reaches MAX flow that is possible for the alky pump at about 22psi?

Or were you saying that the alky will progressively increase with the map pressure, and that effectively stops increasing because it is maxed out when the map pressure reaches about 22psi, but that the FLOW of the alky system when it reaches the 22psi depends on what the gain dial is set to? So at 22psi with a gain knob set to 5, it will reach what the max flow of 5 can be, once 22psi is reached? With the gain knob set to 8, it will reach the max of what the alky pump can flow for the setting of 8 when the map pressure is about 22psi?


Sorry for all the questions.. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

I will be ordering the tester from Julio next week. I definitely would like to see these things for myself so I have a better understanding of all this.

Thank you for your help!

-Tyler

 

[bison]

Mine must be a detonation machine with the merc coils at 5ms and 16v primary.


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[bison]

you guys are bouncing around but still not there ...
now another fly in the mix the surge

its pretty much a given pump will come on at about 6psi (2.0v) and when pump comes on it isnt a smooth flow ..the pump has three valves and basically three chambers with a triangular diaphragm plate that gets stiff from the meth exposure .. they can and do create a pulse ..that pressure can show 0 (theres still alky spray at 0) then the the pulse can be over 50psi between one good valve and one that hasnt seated yet ..with time iit will eventually smooth out as the valves in the pump head flexes and conforms to the seat, i see this surge every time i start a pump and sometimes it can take up to a minute at full flow to clear up the surge ..longer in cold weather .
.imop this test should be done before every race as most cars sit and can watch your alky press logs on the first pass be choppy and then smooth out by the end of the run and then be just fine on the next pass .. you can do this test with razors alky tester
a simple way to stop the surge (well not stop it but get past it ) is take the hose off nozzle put it in bucket and turn the key on and connect a jumper from the map 5v(grey pin A ) to the map out (green pin C) and run the pump for a minute to work the valves in

now on the gain knob ..
when you boost the area that needed most adjustment was the transition at 15psi boost where alky needed to come in harder because most chips were done at that point so you have a gain knob to tweak that area in
if you set map sensor simulator in test kit set at 15psi and change the gain dial from 5 to 8 you can see in an increase pressure at nozzle as much as 30 psi and thats where having the knob full can hurt spoolup because of too much alky is coming in at low rpm vs the amount of fuel needed that AF goes fat and car feels flat ..dial it back and you can raise the af to where car is responsive
now you have knob at 5 and the alky pressure is around 75psi at 15psi boost and the spool is good ..the alky will progressively increase with map pressure but i assure you that at around 22 psi the alky pressure will just about reach max pressure and you can increase the map to 30psi and dial the gain knob up and down and will see very little change in the max alky pressure you had at 22psi
like i said get the tester from razor .. adjust the map simulator in the kit and play with the gain and youll see what i mean .
you can also use the tester to help dial in the boost vs pressure curve on launch using the dials inside the pac box and then see your results in your log

Thank you so much for this response!!

Just so I am clear in my understanding, you are saying that regardless if I have the alky gain knob at 5 or 8psi, once the map pressure is around 22psi the alky system will have reached max pressure?

Once the system reaches max pressure, that will be the largest volume of alky the system will provide, unless we change the nozzle size to allow for an increase in flow?

Since the alky system will reach max flow at roughly 22psi, regardless of whether the gain knob is set to 5 or 8, when tuning the car you want to adjust the gain knob so that when the alky system does hit max flow it does not cause a surge and cause a "fat spot" on the AFR table? So we would set the gain knob at whatever the car likes so that there is no "fat spot" when max pressure from the alky system is reached? And basically regardless of whether we have the system at 5 or 8 on the gain knob, the alky system will ultimately have the same max flow? Is that correct? The gain knob is there more to adjust the alky flow at around 15psi to smooth the transition in the AFR table for when the alky is now at max flow? But regardless of what we set the dial to, once we reach about 22psi, the alky pump will flow the MAX that it is capable of, whether we have the gain knob set to 4, or 5, or 8?

Am I correct in understanding that basically the gain knob is more for tuning the amount of alky at around 15psi?

Depending where the gain knobs inside the black box are set, (which control the rate of ramp and what psi the system will start to turn on at) which ultimately determine what psi and how fast the alky system reaches the max flow, once the "max flow" psi is reached which is typically 15psi from what you are saying, and the gain knob is used to lower or raise the amount of alky that is flowing into the engine at this 15psi area?

But the alky system will increase the flow of alky into the engine as the map pressure increases? Although REGARDLESS of what the setting on the gain dial is set at, the alky system reaches MAX flow that is possible for the alky pump at about 22psi?

Or were you saying that the alky will progressively increase with the map pressure, and that effectively stops increasing because it is maxed out when the map pressure reaches about 22psi, but that the FLOW of the alky system when it reaches the 22psi depends on what the gain dial is set to? So at 22psi with a gain knob set to 5, it will reach what the max flow of 5 can be, once 22psi is reached? With the gain knob set to 8, it will reach the max of what the alky pump can flow for the setting of 8 when the map pressure is about 22psi?


Sorry for all the questions.. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

I will be ordering the tester from Julio next week. I definitely would like to see these things for myself so I have a better understanding of all this.

Thank you for your help!

-Tyler

FYI the gain is a fine tune of the initial.


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[marleyskater420]

FYI the gain is a fine tune of the initial.


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I'm sorry, I don't follow..

Are you meaning that the black box is the initial setup/tune, and the gain knob is the fine adjustment of the alky flow?

I don't exactly follow.

 

[bison]

Re-read the instructions. Initial, turn on, and gain are explained


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[murphster]

Look at the graphs on the link I gave.... in our experience with gain set at 5ish and default initial and turn on settings you would prob see max alky pressure when boost is in lower 20s. Turning the gain up higher you could hit max pressure sooner, say even high teens or 20lbs boost.

The settings are like this because it typically works well. You don’t want alky coming on sooner or you’ll be spraying alky all the time... makes sense for the turn on settings. For the initial setting... you want to have enough alky spraying on when it hits the turn on point so that like Paul said you could have 75psi at 15lb boost or so. For a lot of the cars we’ve dealt with they are somewhat quick spooling (since they have good settings/combos) and you want to make sure the alky is there by the time you get well into boost... and with the typical settings you will get something like 75psi at 15lb boost and max out the alky pressure somewhere in the lower 20s boost.

Now, if you have a turd spooling car along with a tester and/or pressure logger, you could play with settings and have the alky come in slower and more linear with boost. The danger is that if there is anything not 100% with the alky system and hasn’t been primed right before the hit, the alky may take a little longer to build up pressure and then boom, head gasket. Safer to let the alky come in harder and be at a decent pressure sooner rather than later. Harder to tune this area on a chip for gradual vs fast WOT passes on the street with a chip. On an aftermarket ECU you can fine tune the fuel table to adjust for the alky settings you have set.

I did the opposite of most people and turned down my turn on point, lowered the initial and maxed out my gain knob. This meant my alky comes on sooner, but at a lower rate and then maxes out by 18lb boost or so. I have a lots of logs and data and had the alky pressure curve matched to my boost curve. For the track, I just wanted the alky already coming in and stabilized so that I would have a nice steady flow for a pass. Made it easier to tune around and adjust the fuel tables this way. If I had the alky coming in later and hitting harder, the wideband would have to adjust for this and ends up in gettings occilations in the A/F before smoothing out (the ECU can’t fully correct because it may only be 80% of the fuel depending on how much alky you are spraying).

For a quick spooling small turbo, the alky becomes more of an on/off since the time period for the boost to come in is very quick. The settings don’t matter as much and its much more important to make sure the system is primed... because if the alky comes in a little slow it could take out a head gasket if you go WOT quick on the street. This is why the older non-progressive alky systems like SMC worked good on stock and small turbos.. on/off because the transition time to full boost is almost instant.

So whatever your setup, know how the alky is coming in and adjust or know the limits of your ECU setup to tune around it.