Tractor Fluid Observations

[2quiktocare]

fluid?

Well, let's try to see if this post makes it to the board without having the tread pulled. Personal experience with fluids and the physics behind it is that the actual engineering of the fluid and its compression/expansion rates are a strong indicator of temperature of operation. Tractor hydraulic fluid is designed to have a much higher level of compression, meaning when it is in the pump it will not compress as much as type f or dextron fluid. Heat is generated when fluid (or any thing) is compressed. The heat in that process will increase the actual operating temperature of the trans. This may be a slight difference, but yet noticable. Choice of fluid is a personal thing. Neither will make nor break you, and definately not worth fighting over in here.
Calling some one out under the premise of a "meeting " because they have a differing opinion, is purely infantile and is a playground act. If you are so insecure about your beliefs,you have issues way beyond this forum and should visit www.phycologytoday.com. But, then again, if your thoughts vary from theirs, a "meeting" may be needed to settle that one also.
This industry has some strong personalities and we all need to understand, most of us have a bit of an ego going on. So suck it up and move on. We are fortunate to have some of the best minds in our industry helping us out in here. A few are leaders and others follow those trends. The possers and the copy cats will fall by the wayside and the true innovators will stay at the surface.
Remember, scientific data is far more valuable than anything you can cook up on your stove.

 

[chris718]

a general rule of physics is that liquids are not compressable.they are capable of transferring motion eqully in all directions however and of absorbing heat and transferring it through circulation and heat exchange,as well as lubrication in an automatic transmission.i dont see what this compression rate is you speak about .could you be more specific?

 

[2quiktocare]

Well. if you don't think fluid is compressable, I have a bunch of ocean front property in Phoenix to sell you then. The fluid in a transmission is compressed. It is what makes the unit work in the first place. The movement is controlled by designed orifices and pathways. The principle that makes this all possible is compressed fluid. If it wasn't compressed, you would have no line pressure and therefore, no movement to create a forward or reverse thrust. Meaning your transmission wouldn't work (maybe a problem?).
Think of how an a/c system works. You notice the cool air from the compressed gas dropping in pressure prior to it entering the evaporator. The thing you normally don't get to see is just how hot the COMPRESSED gas is at the condensor in front of the car. It is no mistake that the a/c condensor is in front of the radiator. Same thing happens in your trans. the fluid IS COMPRESSED (ie line pressure. The heat it generates is high and crucial. So, you want a fluid that has a lower rate of compression (tractor oil).
Enough of the real world physics, tractor fluid is a viable and very effective way to suppress the negatives of staight trans fluid. Just as adding coolant to your radiator helps with the fluid cooling you engine better, tractor fluid aids atf. Some love it, some don't. It comes down to what ever you prefer. No one needs to be under PRESSURE to change what they use.

p.s. all elements in nature can exist in all three forms, gas, liquid, solid. the thing that makes them change what state they are in, is compression. just a side note for future reference
tomorrows lesson will be on expansion and contraction

 

[chris718]

the basic laws of physics state a fluid is not compressable.this a common acceptable principle in the working of hydraulics.fluid in an automatic transmission is used a to transmit and multiply force thru pascals law of physical properties,to remove heat generated by the energy created and consumed to transmit and multiply force,to lubricate moving parts which transmit load and motion ,and to clean and boil out contaminants /catalists created by friction and other byproducts of power transmission .there is absolutely no workable argument of a fluid compression principle(?)in the inner workings of an automatic transmission .another real world example is when an internal combustion engine blows a headgasket and the cylinder ingests water the end result is a bent connecting rod .THIS IS PROOF that a fluid is not compressible.any how with the facts being the facts ,irrefutable and unquestionable truth ,i have honestly not seen any benefits of specially blended hydraulic oils for automatic transmissions ,even those who were specifically manufactured for automatic transmissions that lowered operating temperatures or created a viscosity that has shown to improve the inner working of an automatic transmission.if others have had more favorable results than i ,based on the information i recieved through observation i would probably still disagree .this however is my own personal opinion as an individual and a proffesional with 18 years in the business i have found that one and one doesnt always equal two for some individuals and thats ok with me because everyone is entitled to their own opinions respectively.

 

[xrunner123]

This is my understanding-
A fluid is defined as particle that moves freely among itself. So this includes liquids and gases. Since gasses are compresible, fluids are compressable.

However liquids are "vitually" incompressable- meaning that for all practicle purposes it is. You will see that assumtion spread all over textbooks and reference books with regard to liquid dynamics. Technically it is compressable, but at these pressures that you all are talking about we have to assume that it is not.

 

[quickt]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
You are just a punk Chris who is skating on thin ice here. I will tell you straight up that you arent wanted here by many members.
I have no desire to meet or to speak with you. All most of us want is for you to leave so we can get back to the way things were before. If you have a problem with it, then maybe you should step back and look at the "rhetoric" (remember that word? you should since you used it in another post) that you have posted on here since you came on here. Most of the other pro's refuse to post here anymore because if their opinion doesnt meet Chris' then they get lambasted by Chris. Also want to see who gets banned first? Me or you? I bet you it wont be me
As a side note, if your idea of "meeting" is getting physical, then I should remind you that you are the one with the business to lose.

WOW What is this all about? As far as getting banned look whos being the jerk. Chris is tring to be nice and this is your response.

 

[squeeze87]

Things are getting wierd around here Lonnie. Oil compresses and make my transmission work, yeah right. Dont mess up and put the compressable oil in your next trans or it wont move! Yeah fluids compress, but the ASTRONIMICAL force invoved makes it a negligable factor.

 

[Clay Thompson]

History lesson

The law of Blaise Pascal says: "changes in pressure at any point in an enclosed fluid at rest are transmitted undiminished to all points in the fluid and act in all directions."

Pascal thought and postulated that for all practical purposes liquids are not compressible, but that “thought” is not actually part of Pascal’s law as a compressible fluid, like hydraulic fluid, would act the same under Pascal’s law as an incompressible fluid if you are attentive to the key phrase in the law—“fluid at rest” which means in a static condition. Pascal was working with water—which is to the best of my knowledge is the ONLY “incompressible” fluid—ATF and hydraulic fluid were not readily available in the 1650’s, one TB poster will probably claim he had some.

Why do some believe otherwise? McGraw-Hill’s high school text books—which most of y’all used—incorrectly combine the two separate issues and it is just one of many examples—and certainly not the most egregious—of how a bunch of stuffy New Yorker’s foisted revisionist history on the American public for over a century under the guise of education.

Where are the moderators?

 

[Buick Beginner]

Wow

I should have paid closer attention in school. Anyone read any good comic books lately? - BB

 

[Clay Thompson]

Were this post belongs

You nailed it Buick Beginner, everything after the first post belongs in the funnies. Thanks for the test info.

 

[FastTurb]

BB,

come on come on try the Royal Purple next.

I'll send it down in a small package - all 11 quarts compressed. 37cents normal mail delivery (I don't know though what weight it would have compressed ) and then when you get it you can un-compress it and put in your trans.

I'll compress it pretty small so make sure you keep an eye out for it in the mail.

please try Royal Purple in the next temperature test

you know the fluids in my head must have somehow become compressed - I'm been feeling "under pressure" a lot these days and I thought is was my job.

 

[Clay Thompson]

Pressure

I think some sort of pressure front has developed between New York City and the rest of the country and Philly just happens to be in the "middle".

Does a Philly cheesesteak come with a container of pressurized Purple? Is that stuff really Purple?

You never did reply how much a quart of Purple trannie fluid costs.

 

[2quiktocare]

right on clay

Clay beat me to the punch there. Pascal's law relates only to the fluid at rest in the pan. The fluid in the convertor is under stress (pressure for the layman) is DOES loose slight volume. That is due to the molecular structure of the oil being compressed (meaning the spaces between atoms is minumized.
The analogy of a hydraulic piston is only a surface observation with a limited insight. The resulting damage to the rod is due to the point the fluid reached maximum compression and at the point the stress of the fluid reached the tensile strength of the rod, the rod gives. The amount of volume lost by the fluid is small compared to a gas, but none the less it is compressed. Read "the Mathematics Applied to Deterministic Problems in the Natural Sciences" C.C. Lin/L.A. Segel. Has much info on this very subject.
ALL things in the physical world can be compressed. The point at which and to which it can be compressed varies greatly from item to item, but i is a natural occurance. Women thank God every day for compressed coal (i.e. diamonds)
Just remember, observed incedences aren't always as appears. Gasoline doesn't burn either, it's the fumes on top of the liquid that does. LOL, there goes another picking point, ha ha ha

 

[2quiktocare]

hey fast turb, the weight would be the same, it would just more more dense, like some of the postings i see around. lol

V=MxD

 

[2quiktocare]

Hey squeeze, what do you think your pump and convertor does to the fluid, just push it around? If it wasn't compressed it would all be idle when it came to moving thru your trans. why do you have line pressure over 200psi, yet its static in the pan? CAUSE THE FLUID IS COMPRESSED, and then those little holes and such control the flow of that fluid under pressure. ha ha ha.
I am so glad I listened to Mr. Dunbar in physics, it is the most useful class i ever took in school.

great weekend to all, go out and support your local P.D. and gas station

 

[ijames]

Ideal liquids are not compressible, and as Pascal states forces are transmitted equally throughout. Real liquids are compressible, but so little that it just doesn't matter. For example, hydrocarbons like trans fluid and motor oil change volume about 100 ppm or 0.01% for every doubling of pressure, so unless you are in a lab you just don't care. Transmissions work off of transmitted pressure acting on pistons, along with calibrated orifices and known oil viscosities that determine how long it takes for a piston to move a certain distance and cause a shift. The refrigeration example doesn't apply because there the working fluid goes through phase changes, from gas to liquid and back to gas each time around the system, while transmission fluid is always liquid.

BuickBeginner did a back to back test and showed that on his car the 424 ran hotter than Dexron III. Whether or not his cooler is inadequate I think it is safe to assume that the trend would have been the same no matter how good the cooler. Yes, fluid viscosity matters in heat transfer efficiency inside the cooler but not that much, over the small range in question. Likemy6 posted data that shows that with his cooler setup his temps are just fine with 424, but he didn't post temps with Dexron III so we don't know if they would be lower or higher on his car. Is there anyone else who has done a direct comparison between Dexron III and 424? I thought Bruce had posted that the trans would run a little cooler, but maybe I'm misremembering (and I don't have time for an archive search - that pesky job ).

 

[2quiktocare]

I agree with you James. As I said in my original post, is it would be minimal, but the fluid does compress. The basic principle of the a/c system is what I was pointing out, not that it was identical. The thing I really found most interesting is that we dont know another important factor in this anecdotal account. and that is what was the ambient temperature at the time of testings. That makes a huge difference also. My main point in all of this is one thing, It's all personal choice. No one is right, and no one is wrong. Although some feel if you don't do as they say, you are a fool. But then, we have dealt with those types all our lives I guess. Like I said, use whatever you want. If you feel good with it, then use it. whether it's straight, blended, or synthetic. In the end, you are the one that has to pay for the repairs. Just my personal choice is a small mixture of tractor fluid. But I promise not to wanna thump anyone if they choose otherwise

 

[FastTurb]

OK OK don't "pressure" me about the price of Royal Purple.

I don't sell it but use it. I buy it the big conainer to save some $ but here is a current ad from ebay and YES it is PURPLE - at least in the uncompressed state.

Description

Max ATF® is recommended for all automatic transmissions requiring Ford Mercon® or GM Dexron® III transmission fluids.
Max ATF® is a synthetic, high performance, long life, multipurpose, automatic transmission fluid. Max ATF® is more oxidation stable than other transmission fluids and greatly resists breakdown from heat and loss of proper lubricity. Max ATF® is fully compatible and can be mixed with other automatic transmission fluids; however, for the best results drain or flush current oil and then fill with Max ATF®.

Try Royal Purple® today and Feel the Difference!

Bidding starts at Only $5.99 a quart or $71.88 per case of 12 quarts plus S&H of $5.00 for up to 6 quarts, $7.97 for 7 quarts to a case of 12 quarts in the U.S. 48. All others pay actual UPS Shipping.



Oh and I'll send a compressed Philly Cheesesteak but you'll have to uncompress it to eat it otherwise you could just swallow it whole.

 

[2quiktocare]

I will take a cheesesteak also , but i will take mine uncompressed. Don't wanna swallow more than i can chew in any one bite Fast T. lmao. Like i say, if you are comfortable with it, thats half the battle right there. You guys have a great week end.
p.s., and none of the purple stuff on it either please. lol

 

[squeeze87]

Hmmm.. I guess I would have said the reason my line pressure was 300 psi yet the pan fluid is at atmosphere, is because the line fluid is under pressure between the pump rotor and the clutch pack\ servo piston. The fluids resistance to compression would be the reason the clutches are forced together. Where is the flaw in this reasoning. Actually I really dont care... I'm just relaxing after mowing the lawn,drinking a Bud and reading all the super genious theory on fluid dynamics. These threads really crack me up. Hey Chris what is this GUESSER thing all about?? I have seen you type it before.