Trying to figure out PTE's HP ratings...

[GREG O'Brien]

I'm a Ford 2.3L guy - but I figured I'd poke around here since you guys know alot more about PTE than I do.

I am a little confused by PTE's HP ratings... i would REALLY like to know the #/min airflow, surge limit, maximum pressure ratio, and efficiency percentages for their turbos.

I have emailed them several times and they always say they'll get back to me later and that they can't release the actual maps because of an agreement with Garrett


so here is where i am confused


they have the SC50 rated at 445hp - but it appears to be a T04E-50 garrett compressor based on the spec sheets which has a max airflow of 49 #/min - seems conservative to me.

they have the TA/TE/SC-32 rated at 485hp - but it appears to be a T04E-57 garrett compressor based on the spec sheets which has a max air flow of 49#/min too - so that seem a okay.

they have the TA/TE/SC-34 rated at 545hp - but it appears to be a T04E-54 garrett compressor based on the spec sheets which has a max air flow of only 44#/min - so that is out of left field...

then they have the TA/TE/SC - 44, 51, and 53 which all appear to MAYBE be varied combinations of T04B-H with either a T31, a GT350, or a T04E turbine wheel.

and there is also the TA/TE/SC - 60, 52, and 54 which all appear to be varied cominations of the 60-1 with either a T31, a GT350, or a T04E turbine wheel.



My biggest questions center around:

1) where do they get these HP measurements - since they don't seem to relate directly to the max airflow of the turbo?

2) does there "custom" compressor housing have any major effect on the surge limit, efficiency, or maximum pressure ratio of the turbo?



the SC50 has the efficiency, pressure ratios and surge limit that i want - but it doesn't appear to flow enough and is rated at low HP.

the SC34 has the efficiency, pressure ratios, HP level I want, but the map says it really doesn't flow much and it has a FUNKY surge limit.

the SC60 has the flow and hp level i want - but according to the maps it has is a little short on effective pressure ratio, it isn't very efficient, and it could have a better surge limit for my "little" engine

any insight or experiences...

i could really use some answers.

GREG

 

[ChrisCairns]

Phone Turbonetics and get one of their catalogues .... they have the maps in it.

 

[GREG O'Brien]

i've got it on my lap as i type...

it has my engine's airflow and pressure ratios (calculated) plotted on just about EVERY map in pencil

it is also how i pretty much could tell what wheels PTE was using in each turbo based on the measurements on their specs.

the problem is that the maps don't always seem to jive with what PTE says the compressor will do... plus they suggest that the compressor housing will change the characteristics of the turbo

Unfortunately PTE never really give any hard data on the turbo's dynamic characteristics - just measurements.

 

[GREG O'Brien]

ok - i found this link: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turbowheels.html

which cleared alot of questions up...

but i am still mystified as to the actual HP ratings!

how can a 50 trim rated at 49#/min on its map make 445hp, a 60 trim rated at 50#/min on its map make 565hp, and a 60-1 trim rated at 63#/hr on its map make 580hp ?!?!?

any thoughts?

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

must take into consiteration back pressure in the exaust system

if you figure out (their) ratings let me know cause i dont think they are even close to right on the 50 series

 

[UNGN]

They rate the TE44 abnormally high for some strange reason. My theory is its a typo. It should only be about 5-10 hp more than a TA49, MAX.

They have it making the same HP as a TE60, which has a larger compressor and the same exhaust. And the TE51 making 585hp... OK

The TA51 only makes 10 hp less than the TE51.... so the integral compressor housing is worth 10 hp, right?

Wrong. The TE44 has 35 more hp than the TA49 (The only difference is the integral compressor housing)

Bottom line, take the numbers with a grain of salt.

 

[Scottie-GNZ]

Glad to see someone else pursuing this question as I asked the same thing in another thread and got no response.

Precision rates the 44 at 575hp, the 51 at 585 and John Craig rates the 44 at 475hp. They all use the T04E-60 compression wheel, which on the Turbonetic map maxes out at 50#/min or about 476. So, John Craig's number makes sense, but what is it about the Precision turbos that makes them capable of 100+ more hp?

A response from Precision would sure help here.

 

[GREG O'Brien]

yeah - but after sending 3 emails to PTE with no substantial reply - i kinda doubt it.

Not trying to bash PTE by any means, but a thorough explanation/rationale would be nice rather than "just taking their word for it". - I still have a list of stuff to buy from them once the long block is finalized and i know EXACTLY what I am dealing with... it is just that discrepancies like this give me a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach when it comes to such large purchases. Maybe I'll just by my engine control stuff from them and go to John Craig or someone for the turbo?!?!

REDS HOT AIR - do you think the 50 trim is worth more or less hp than it is rated?

seems to be that the 50 trim has the EXACT same capability as the 60 trim when combined with an identical turbine wheel- but it is MUCH more flexible in its operating range and efficiency.... but most turbo shops don't push it because it tend to be more expensive than other T04Es from a parts cost standpoint.

Seems that both the 57 and 60 trim based turbos are overstated. I do believe that the custom compressor housing could improve the efficiency and surge limit of the turbo - but I don't think it could make THAT much a difference in total airflow.

I definitely believe all the horsepower claims made about the turbos utilizing the 60-1, but i think that the large differences in hp rating based on the turbine size kinda make alot of assumptions about the motor.


Why don't more people with turbo buicks use a T61 compressor - the map for that looks WAY better than a 60-1 or 62-1! I don't get it.

GREG

 

[GREG O'Brien]

to somewhat back up my hunch - took the ET's/MPH from two threads on this board that listed the fastest times for a TE44 (most were 11.2-11.5@116-121mph) and ran them through a dyno calculator... not many of them came up with much more than 500hp (most were about 475) - even with alot of motor work, 20-28psi of boost, and RACE gas!

this definitely isn't all that accurate - but just interesting. Kinda supports the compressors maps rating of ~49#/min of air.

i am trying to find some of the fastest times out there with a TE60 so that I can see if there is a pattern.

GREG

 

[JDEstill]

Greg, personally I would trust what the compressor maps say rather than a vendors "hp" numbers. Buy what your car needs rather than "I'm going to make 500 hp so I'll get that 500 hp turbo". If I was buying brand new, I'd figure out the boost level and rpm I was going to run, figure up the acfm and pressure ratio I needed, and give *that* to my vendor. I wouldn't say "give me a TE-60", I'd say "I will need a turbo that can pull 800 cfm @ a 2.7 pressure ratio. What turbo will that be?" and let them give me the one that best suits that need. If said vendor couldn't use my specs to give me the appropriate piece of equipment, I'd find a new vendor!

John Estill

 

[Scottie-GNZ]

John, you make excellent points and definitely the approach that we should use, BUT, the issue at hand here are the numbers that Precision posts and backs. If someone used this approach and went to Precision and that person's specs project out to a max of 510hp, would Precision recommend the PTE-51? Why not, the PTE-51 specs say it would have a 15% margin. Anyone here feel that would be the right choice, the other alleged 51 problem aside?

I want to believe that there is something unique about a PTE-51 that makes it capable of supporting way over 500hp. JUST TELL US HOW IT ACCOMPLISHES THAT.

 

[UNGN]

Originally posted by GREG O'Brien
to somewhat back up my hunch - took the ET's/MPH from two threads on this board that listed the fastest times for a TE44 (most were 11.2-11.5@116-121mph) and ran them through a dyno calculator... not many of them came up with much more than 500hp (most were about 475) - even with alot of motor work, 20-28psi of boost, and RACE gas!

121 mph is 500 hp (at the crank) in an average weight GN. That can be done with ported heads, a front mount intercooler, 28" tires and a TE44 (3600Lb car). This would be at a reasonable boost level of around 24-25 psi and of course, race gas.

A turbo is a small piece of the puzzle, though. And as motor parts go, a relatively inexpensive one. A TE44 can get a heavy car like ours into the very low 11's. If it isn't big enough, you can always sell it and buy bigger.

If you think you are going to run 10's on 2.3L and pump gas, you better have a 2000lb car.

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Originally posted by JDEstill
Greg, personally I would trust what the compressor maps say rather than a vendors "hp" numbers. Buy what your car needs rather than "I'm going to make 500 hp so I'll get that 500 hp turbo". If I was buying brand new, I'd figure out the boost level and rpm I was going to run, figure up the acfm and pressure ratio I needed, and give *that* to my vendor.

I've done all that already and I kinda fall inbetween turbos - I could go with like a 50, 54, 57, or 60 trim - but they would be a little small.... I could go with a 60-1 which flows enough - but compressor surge could be an issu, or I could go with a big T61 which has a PERFECT map for my application - but it is a huge wheel that will not have any sort of street ability on my little motor. So if they are saying a small turbo that I consider too small will fit my motors hp range and airflow (like a TE44) - then I am willing to look into - as I am now

The other thing is - I prefer to look at the map and decide for myself - since I personally think I put more time into the decision than the average vendor plus I also know my motor better than alot of the vendors (not to many vendors deal with alot of 2.3L stuff - though I believe PTE has done quite a few). I am also trying to make good hp on pump gas - so I look at a few different pressure ratios and the airflow/efficiency in those ranges...

If they are saying that it will be good for xxxhp - and I don't see that on the map... I'd like to know how they came up with that number. That is how I learn new stuff - I am curious

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Originally posted by UNGN
121 mph is 500 hp (at the crank) in an average weight GN. That can be done with ported heads, a front mount intercooler, 28" tires and a TE44 (3600Lb car). This would be at a reasonable boost level of around 24-25 psi and of course, race gas.

A turbo is a small piece of the puzzle, though. And as motor parts go, a relatively inexpensive one. A TE44 can get a heavy car like ours into the very low 11's. If it isn't big enough, you can always sell it and buy bigger.

If you think you are going to run 10's on 2.3L and pump gas, you better have a 2000lb car.

right so that is 500hp from a turbo they claim to make up to 580hp?!?! not to mention that the 60 trim really doesn't have a very pretty map past 23-24psi.

i agree that a turbo is a small piece of the puzzle - but i am waiting for my head - so i have time to scrutinize

as far as my particular combination... i admit my goals are set high - but that is what goals are for

the most i have heard from a 2.3L (2.5L stroker actually) on pump gas is about 400rwhp with an iron head a 57 trim and an EEC tuner + the usual bolt ons and ported stock manifolds.

my car weighs roughly 2500-2600# in race trim (1979 notch with full interior , some chromoly and fiberglass, and a bunch of sneaky weight loss measures ), has a 2.5L stroker, and is awaiting a new Esslinger aluminum head... it will have a felpro system, water/alky injection, a header, a BIG NPR front mount, and a few other tricks...

the tuning will be hard - but it's DEFINITELY possible in a 2500# street car there on pump gas- it will probably take about 450rwhp - which I think I can get with the parts i have listed working together correctly.

i am leaning toward going with a smaller more efficient turbo for my pump gas goal and then just adding race gas and nitrous to try to push the single digits... but that is a long ways off. Still have alot of work to do and I am sure there will be plenty of frustration to go around for everyone LOL

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Originally posted by Scottie-GNZ
J If someone used this approach and went to Precision and that person's specs project out to a max of 510hp, would Precision recommend the PTE-51? Why not, the PTE-51 specs say it would have a 15% margin. Anyone here feel that would be the right choice, the other alleged 51 problem aside?

i think that there isn't enough information about the pressure ratios or surge limit of these turbos either... hp limits are great (when they are accurate) but a 500hp turbo designed for 2.0 bar is gonna SUCK on a 500hp motor with a restrictive head that requires 30psi - not to mention possible crossing the surge limit if the turbo spools at a decently low rpm.

i just seem to see people with TE44 and TE60 turbos running 28-30 psi... problem is that the turbo map only goes to 25 psi and it is designed to flow PTE's "max hp" number at 22psi or so... seems like a mismatch to me.

too many unanswered questions LOL

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

just in case you dont know John Craig has had personal experiences with turbo 4 cylinder fords.

but most the high hp high boost motors are built from 2.0 liters

and the 51's i dont think they are rated more than they will produce ... i know after blowing the turbine wheel apart on 4 of them

 

[Chris Taylor]

I don't think you like the 51's Red. LOL Man you have had some bad luck with the 51's.

HP number from PTE are just that, numbers on paper.

 

[Brooks]

Hi Greg, I've asked some of these same questions in the past. Finding turbo info was/is like finding hens teeth!

One of the problems with the turbo "Specs" that are advertised like CFM, is that no amplifying information is given. Several turbos are "capable" of "X" CFM but is that at 75% efficiency or 50% efficieny? 1.5 pressure ratio or 4.5 pressure ratio? You get my drift I'm sure.

Sounds like you know how to read a compressor map. I second what john said, call the vendors and ask some questions. They won't be able to BS you and if they do try to BS you or won't answer the questions (some won't!) or <GASP!> they hang up on you (some will!) move on to another vendor with a professional attitude!

Oh yeah, don't limit yourself to badge specific (Buick, Ford, etc...) turbo vendors. There are some interesting things going on in the import turbo world though some of them tend to be more expensive than they should be.

Good luck!!!

Charles Brooks

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Reds Hot Air: actually most of the high HP guys I know have STROKED 2.3Ls - the only guys that run 2.0L motors are circle trackers so that they hold together at 9000rpm.

A few examples:

Fred House - 2.7+L tall deck turbo, aluminum head - low 9's at 10psi (oh yeah it is setup for 20-30psi ) T series turbo - no nitrous

Jon Del Blair - 2.7+L tall deck turbo, aluminum head - 700+ rwhp -low 9's - T series turbo - no nitrous (street car)

Dave Flanders - FACTORY 2.5L block/crank with aluminum rods - aluminum head - 60-1 turbo - 9.80's - no nitrous but i runs on alcohol, (street car)

Joe Morgan - FACTORY 2.3L block/crank with aluminum rods - aluminum head - low 9's - 700rwhp off the spray - runs on alcohol.

Joe P. - 2.7+L tall deck block turbo - aluminum head - 517 RWHP - road race suspension - ran like a 12.5@127mph LOL

Rick Byrnes - I am pretty sure he had a stroker and set the production 4 cylinder land speed record @ 213mph or something like that.

Modern Performance - tube frame ranger - pro import - BIG tall deck stroker with an aluminum head - projected to turn 1100+hp and run 7's. - All the parts are there for it - but I don't have confidence that they will get it setup right... all money ride.

There are a bunch of others in the 10's with street cars and Junkyard style race cars - ALL of which are either 2.3L or 2.5L motors.



Charles:

yeah - i know a fair amount about airflow dynamics and compressor maps for a hobby racer - probably a good deal more than average.

i definitely know what you mean - i've called a FEW questionable turbo places in the past year, and they got pretty damn irritated that i didn't just take their recommendation and that i asked questions they didn't know.

i'd LOVE to find some maps for some of the OTHER turbo makers - KKK, Holset, Mitsubishi, HKS, etc... all have some EXCELLENT turbos... but I don't even know where to BEGIN looking.

I will say that some of you Grand National guys should look into Holset turbos, if you haven't already... they have some really advanced turbos from what i have seen from a few "unofficial"
maps and they can support just about ANY power level and most of them have real high pressure ratios with WIDE operating ranges. Many of them will bolt right up to a T3 flange too

Later

GREG

 

[ChrisCairns]

Originally posted by GREG O'Brien

Fred House - 2.7+L tall deck turbo, aluminum head - low 9's at 10psi (oh yeah it is setup for 20-30psi ) T series turbo - no nitrous

Jon Del Blair - 2.7+L tall deck turbo, aluminum head - 700+ rwhp -low 9's - T series turbo - no nitrous (street car)

Dave Flanders - FACTORY 2.5L block/crank with aluminum rods - aluminum head - 60-1 turbo - 9.80's - no nitrous but i runs on alcohol, (street car)

Joe Morgan - FACTORY 2.3L block/crank with aluminum rods - aluminum head - low 9's - 700rwhp off the spray - runs on alcohol.

Joe P. - 2.7+L tall deck block turbo - aluminum head - 517 RWHP - road race suspension - ran like a 12.5@127mph LOL

Rick Byrnes - I am pretty sure he had a stroker and set the production 4 cylinder land speed record @ 213mph or something like that.

Dammit Greg....now your letting us know our V6's are the near-future white elephants....lol. I suddenly feel like the Corvette guys did in 1987.