Trying to figure out PTE's HP ratings...

[GREG O'Brien]

ah - don't worry... we're in the same boat...

BOTH 'lima' 2.3L and 3.8L date back to the late 60's early 70's....

the 2.3L started as the 2.0L pinto engine in the earlies 70's and the 3.8L started as the odd-fire "dauntless" 225 cube motor - later converted to an even fire 231 when Buick took it out of the Jeep and started putting it into cars again in the early 70's.

BOTH the 2.3T and 3.8T where first turbocharged as carb setups in the late 70's - 1979 for the 2.3L and 1978? for the 3.8L correct?

neither of them was particularly successful until they were fuel injected in 1983 for the 2.3L and 1982? for the 3.8L correct?

and BOTH really woke up and started kicking *ss when the were intercooled 1984 for the 2.3L and 1984? for the 3.8L?

the 3.8T ceased production in 1987 but continued on in N/A form, the 2.3T ceased production in 1989 but continued on in N/A form

both have a near cult following, built an entire motorsports program, and a started revolution AROUND themselves in the face the small block - these motorsports programs resulted in improved block - you guys have the Stage II, we have the Ford Motorsport Tall Deck - both are hard to find and cost a fortune.

both run a T3 from the factory and upgrade to either a T3/T4 or full T4, both groups convert to aftermarket EFI - but prefer to stay with water/alky or propane injection.

but I must say you guys have the edge on the market though - we need to buy your stuff or make our own... I think this is due to "legend" status... I attribute it to the dark blacked-out/classy 'semi-mafia' look of the GN - nastier looking than any 80's ford. And the whole "faster than a vette" thing.

basically the motors are "cousins" from two different car companies with nearly identical histories.

i am sure some of the dates are wrong - feel free to correct - but the symmetrically pattern of evolution is QUITE interesting don't you think?

 

[ijames]

One thing I've never really seen addressed is how the turbine wheel and housing affect the horsepower - how is that accounted for on the compressor map? The TE62 supports more hp than a TE61/PT54 than a PT52 than a TE60, all with the same compressor wheel. I know that qualitatively the bigger turbines restrict the exhaust less so the exhaust manifold back pressure is less so there is more airflow and smaller pumping losses for a given intake manifold boost pressure, but is there any way to quantitatively predict this?

As for going fast on pump gas, I think you need to err on the big side if you are octane limited. You give up a lot of power having to keep the timing dialed back with 93 octane, and the bigger the turbo the more boost you can run at the same timing/octane. I run 12.18-12.5 at 118-110.5 mph at 4000 lbs on 93 octane but I'm sure I could go mid-11's on race gas and chip (PTE54, CAS V2 frontmount, THDP, completely stock heads and cam).

 

[Turbo Ryan]

Just some minor corrections.

Originally posted by GREG O'Brien
neither of them was particularly successful until they were fuel injected in 1983 for the 2.3L and 1982? for the 3.8L correct?

First fuel injected cars were in '84.

and BOTH really woke up and started kicking *ss when the were intercooled 1984 for the 2.3L and 1984? for the 3.8L?

First intercooled TB was in '86.

i am sure some of the dates are wrong - feel free to correct - but the symmetrically pattern of evolution is QUITE interesting don't you think?

That is for sure. But it seems Ford stayed a step ahead of Buick when it came to implementing new technology.

Ryan

 

[qtr@atyme]

Wouldn't give up on PTE.
I belive Harry used to campaign a 2.3 stang.
Think it set several records in it's day .
I've delt with Harry and Dan on several accounts and the have never steered me wrong .
Anyhow good luck on what ever choices you make

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

dont cart racing use the 2.0's

my buddy has a turbo'd 2.0 in his pinto thats being tubbed now cause he spun 28/10.50 slicks up into high gear but layed down 11.0 at 138 mph and its a pull thru carb no intercooler

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
my buddy has a turbo'd 2.0 in his pinto thats being tubbed now cause he spun 28/10.50 slicks up into high gear but layed down 11.0 at 138 mph and its a pull thru carb no intercooler

where is he located at?

that MPH is no joke... iron headed or aluminum? must be a REALLY light chassis - i am guessing a race weight under 2000 pounds? yes/no? i would imagine that thing likes to pull some serious RPM too...

i am sure there are some fast 2.0L out there - but the fastest ones I know of are based on a tall deck block ($4k) with a BIG (relatively) crank...

 

[Chris Taylor]

Greg, I sent you mail.
CT

 

[turbov6joe]

That's cool you mention Joe Morgan. He used to live here in KC and is a friend of mine.....actually a friend through a friend. A few years back he was in KC on the power tour and amazed about everyone with his car's performance. Shortly after that, another buddy of mine bought a nice 1990 LX with a blown 4 banger, dropped in his semi-built 2.3T and a driveline out of a 5.0. He had a small 75 shot and a GN turbo. This car would run LOW 11's all day long at 123 mph, and lift the tires 10"s on every launch. Later he installed a Tremic (sp) 5 speed and had a tad more duribility with that tranny. This car weighed nearly nothing even with the bar and full sheet metal. Since then it has changed owners a few times and has never ran as good as when Shawn owned it. As a side note....a year or so ago at the Ford world Challenge in St.Lous, Shawn won his class but was peer challenged for suspicion of NOS. I can attest that the NOS was unhooked, but somehow this cry baby got his way and he was disqualified I also love the 2.3T, as I had one in a Merkur XR4Ti and a 1988 turbo coupe. I plan to build another Merkur in the near future as a DD to play with....right now my TTA is taking up all the extra $$$. Good luck with your turbo search!

PS> I personally think the TE44 is a kick ass turbo! Spools like mad, pulls VERY hard at 25 psi and makes tons of power. I picked up 5 mph in the 1/8 and 1/4 by just bolting on a TE44; nothing else!

 

[Monty]

I agree that it would be nice if PTE was a little more forthright with hard data on their turbos. I was able to break their turbo's down and find the compressor maps and figure out what the ratios were, but they don't aways make it easy.

However, I have had good results with their HP estimates. They rate the PT-52's that I use for 600 hp each. On my twin turbo SBC 427, I made almost exactly 1200hp, 1201 hp to be exact.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

the pinto guy is here in newport news va. ..it is a production 2.0 block with a billet cart racing crank .. actually the whole shortblock is built to cart specks and its on a production 2.0 head which is ported .. hes trying to find a deal on a cosworth head to put on it and build a custm fuel injection setup for it so he can i/c it and get it tuned in much better than he can with the carb setup.

i believe he said it was at 43# boost when he run that pass

the chassis was all stock 71 pinto trunk model that he's ripped the front sub frame loose from the body twice but its all getting tied in now along with the backhalf

the car is ugly as sin (still original paint rust and all) but its mainly a toy

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
i believe he said it was at 43# boost when he run that pass

says it all!

 

[GREG O'Brien]

well guys - after getting emailed a few recommendations - i called John Craig @ Limit Engineering...

That guy is awesome!

We basically spent half an hour going through every wheel option from a T3 Stage III/T04E-50 up to a T61! Which can take a while when you are talking about efficiency, surge limit, pressure ratios, AND max airflow... he gave me alot of 'insider' information too about what to realistically expect from each turbo...

We basically narrowed it down to three options for my motor:
- a T60-1 in a E housing with a T31 (stage III) turbine
- a TS04 with a T31 (stage III) turbine
- and a new garrett compressor which I can't remember off the top of my head.

he said that anything bigger (like a T61) would necessitate a GT350 (stage V) turbine which would REALLY hurt streetability on my small displacement motor.

Interesting - probably the single most helpful guy I've talked to in the business and his prices sounded REAL good. Thanks to all those that recommended him.

I'll probably still be dealing with P.T.E. on engine management stuff - but Limit has gotten the 'contract' on the turbo.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Greg,

Thank for the reply on the e-mail.

I purchase all of my turbos from John Craig. I also purchase all of my turbo parts form John. IMO, John is the best turbo man period!

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

Originally posted by Chris Taylor
John is the best turbo man period!

who else is there..

 

[Chris Taylor]

 

[salvageV6]

What about Turbonetics?

Not sure who the man is for those but I could guess.....

 

[GREG O'Brien]

Originally posted by Monty
I agree that it would be nice if PTE was a little more forthright with hard data on their turbos. I was able to break their turbo's down and find the compressor maps and figure out what the ratios were, but they don't aways make it easy.

However, I have had good results with their HP estimates. They rate the PT-52's that I use for 600 hp each. On my twin turbo SBC 427, I made almost exactly 1200hp, 1201 hp to be exact.

hmmm - don't have much to constructively add about the setup - because that is WAY out of the realm of anything I've ever even considered doing!!!

but as far as the turbos go - i don't doubt it. the TE 60/52/54 turbos are based off of the T04B 60-1 wheel which will support every bit of 600hp and it is right there on the map.

as a matter of fact - Dave Flanders on my list above has run 9.80's with a 3000# car, an auto tranny, and both a 2.3L and 2.5L setup. Every 9 and 10 second run he has done was through a Hi-Fi 60-1 - which actually only flows about 90% of a regular 60-1. So that right there is probably REALLY close to 600hp.

BUT what I question is their rating for the TE44/51/53 are all based of a regular 60 trim T04E wheel which, on its map, looks to be no 600hp turbo - probably not a 525 or 550hp turbo either.

Your turbo is a VERY capable unit - but I find it silly that the 51 right below it flows 100+ #/min LESS air and only gives up 10-15hp... YEAH rrriiiigggghhhhtttttt ok.

Sounds like a wicked setup though. Maybe someday, when I can afford the chassis to go with it, I'll build something like that.

GREG