Tuning with Alky

[BarnesGN]

I've got two friends with Alky, one who tunes by turning the pump to 10 and pulling fuel pressure from regulator.

The other tunes by running the car WOT and starting with 10 and pulling pump speed until he see's knock then adding 1 to that number. 10 no knock, 5(pump speed) 1* kr so pump speed would be 6.

Both have Extender chips,SMC kits and translator boxes and start with a fuel pressure base of 45 line off.

So which should run better and how do you veteran users tune by.

 

[salvageV6]

The one who leaves the pump on 10 and adds a nozzle or two and turns the boost up the highest.

Lean the car out with some boost, don't rob it of alky. and/or fuel.

Just my .02 on using the same setup.

What boost levels are you talking about here and what combo?

 

[V6POWER]

I am the one running pump speed of 10. My Turbo Link does not record boost levels over 25# and my gauge is showing 26-28#, but that may be incorrect. I have the single nozzle kit with rectangular tank and my fuel pressure is 40# static. O2's are around 800 and EGT is 1570-1590 (rich). Combo in signature.

 

[Razor]

Easy.. whatever makes the car fastest and doesnt set of your knock detector.

What works for one vehicle, sometimes doesnt work for another.

I tune for intake air temps under 100 at full boost, EGT's in the low-mid 1600's, as much timing as the conditions allow, and no KR.

Easy..

 

[V6POWER]

Razor---How much under 100 for the IAT?

 

[Razor]

At 24 PSI with my 67 I see 97-99 through the traps. It was 90 degrees ambient at the time. Funny thing is when I lift the temps will sometimes go down into the 50's from the alky in the intake.

Anything under 125 will make power. Not much is to be gained going lower.. tho i'm testing the theory. This is a statement a close friend made.. One thing for sure, if the temps go up.. so will the KR. Guaranteed.

Next few weeks i'll do some testing at 28-29 PSI and see what happens. See if I can keep my Felpro fuses intact

PS.. this is part of one of those future gadjet's R&D that i'm working on.. shhh

 

[SloGN]

Alky tuning

I would be the other friend that tunes using alky injection. The way i do it is i start at a given boost level Say 21 PSI and i start off using a high pump speed while tuning the alky in i slowly lower the pump speed till i see a hint of knock Retard. then i turn it up just a tad.


What is better for making power?

using the alky as sumplement fuel @ WOT or to supress KR.

Cause as what (look Quik) does he adjusts the Static fuel pressure to acheive that same O2 #'s @ WOT with the pump speed on max.

I know that a Gallon of alky can't support as much HP as a gallon of GAS

so knowing that what is the better way to tune using alky?

 

[Razor]

Re: Alky tuning

Originally posted by SloGN

I know that a Gallon of alky can't support as much HP as a gallon of GAS

Tell that to Honda.. 4 cyl runs 13.5:1 compression, 60 PSI boost makes 1500HP plus on methanol. 1980's Indy Formula 1 cars

 

[BarnesGN]

All 3 of are using Denatured Alcohol so please correct me if I am wrong. Their is more at this website also.

Alcohol is usually used in the form of Methyl alcohol or methanol for short. CH3OH is the chemical formula. Methanol when compared pound for pound to gasoline yields about half of the heat energy potential. Where alcohol offers 9000 BTU/lb. Gasoline offer 18000 BTU/lb. Basically methanol is a far less powerful fuel on a pound per pound basis.

http://www.geocities.com/n2oinjection/page10.htm


So gasoline looks to me to have more btu's

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by BarnesGN

First you said:
I know that a Gallon of alky can't support as much HP as a gallon of GAS
Then you said:
So gasoline looks to me to have more btu's

Different meanings.

With alky you have to run ~2x as much fuel to make the same HP.

At extreme HP levels you can run out of room for the alky, volume wise, as compared to gas, for a given amount of air flow. On a related note, that's why they use Nitro in the TF classes, since it carries it's own Oxygen to the combustion process.

 

[salvageV6]

If you have any more numbers available on your controller you ain't making enough boost.

Look Quick would appear to be making more power at 25-27 psi.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by salvageV6
If you have any more numbers available on your controller you ain't making enough boost.

Look Quick would appear to be making more power at 25-27 psi.

You can saturate the air, and then the alky is just puddling somewhere. I've never reached that stage, but in some of the pulling tractors I've watched some have seemed to reach that point. ie, when they hit the water, it just just stalls the engine. On my friend's puller, they turn the water on at 35 PSI at ~6K RPM, and you can see the smoke plume go from pitch black to light gray from all the steam in the system. FWIW, it uses a gal of water in ~15 sec pull.

 

[Razor]

Power comes from squeezing the motor. And one car may be more prone to detonating at 25 PSI than the other at 25 PSI. Which means if everything were identical, one would need less alcohol than the other to control detonation. Assumming both had identical conditions.

Now if the car that needed less alcohol was squeezed even harder.. timing/boost/fueling.. its requirements would increase.. and thus the amount would also go up.

The more you richen the motor, the less timing you run, the less boost.. the less need for alcohol to control detonation. So becuase one runs with less alcohol means nothing.

Bet if you up the boost, up the timing, lean the motor down.. the thirst for it will go up.. and so will your knob.. and nozzles..

 

[Razor]

Look Quick is at 95 in the 1/8.. appears he is faster.

He with the most MPH makes the most HP.

 

[NC87GN]

Going back to the original post...
"one who tunes by turning the pump to 10 and pulling fuel pressure from regulator."

Pulling fuel, with the FPR, with a translator setup defeates the purpose of having one IMHO. You set at 45# static and forget about it. Adjust your WOT FUEL with the box. By pulling fuel from the regulator your correcting the problem on top but what about the bottom...?

Irregardless of what method you choose to tune from listen to the person who setup the chip for you... I personally would dial the car in without ALKY and creep up on boost until I seen a hint of spark knock (0-2 degrees). That would give me a good reference to what I can run on pump gas. From there I typically follow the 2nd procedure of starting at 10 and reducing the pump speed until I see a hint of knock..

Mike Banas
87GN

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by NC87GN

Irregardless of what method you choose to tune from listen to the person who setup the chip for you... I personally would dial the car in without ALKY and creep up on boost until I seen a hint of spark knock (0-2 degrees). That would give me a good reference to what I can run on pump gas. From there I typically follow the 2nd procedure of starting at 10 and reducing the pump speed until I see a hint of knock..

Mike Banas
87GN

Mike, if you start at low boost with a high pump speed, you'll get a bunch of knock/surging. Its start at low boost with a low pump speed and work up from there. Keep adding boost.. adding alky.. adding timing.. adding fuel.

Just to think how complicated all this stuff use to be.

Julio

 

[NC87GN]

I agree Razor. With the "new" developments to progressive ALKY kits and extender extreme chips its come along way from when I first started messing with ALKY. I do not run ALKY anymore as I am a firm believer in running the good gas at the track. If someone is willing to push the limits of ALKY running ungodly boost levels then the are in the right forum to show off. As for me and some other locals there is NO substitute for the good gas. Just my opinion and no flame intented on anyone..

Mike Banas
87GN

 

[BarnesGN]

So Mike's advice is that I should use the translator to affect WOT fueling instead of the AFPR. That is the first step.

The knock Razor is reffering to is what I call rich knock.

Alright Thanks

 

[Razor]

Mike,

Why not use alcohol on top of good gas?

careful how ya answer

Ya didnt hear bout the tests done on Cal Hartlines car using C16 and alcohol on top..

I'll leave this alone

 

[Swede2]

Yeah, methanol has higher octane than C16 so its logical that it will help in my oppinion... but I have not tested it yet.

Daniel