Turbo 3800 Greetings.. (pic heavy?)
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20psiofevil
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- Feb 10, 2013
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These motors are pretty stout to go low 10's. Where does the strength come from? is it forged rotating assembly stock? Curious what the firing order is? Where is a good site to read up on this engine?
I liked the Riv's.. to bad didn't last long on building them. Had an different look to them.
Stock short blocks have gone 8's... so there is some magic in them some where.
Very very old write up @ http://www.thrashercharged.com/tech_htm/engine_tear.shtm
Firing
The L67 to L36 the the pistons/connecting rods are different. L67 being the stronger of the two, and lower compression.
Pistons are hypereutectic
As the crank, I don't think there is anything super special about the alloy or anything either. Just nice and beefy, and the cross 4 bolted mains help a bunch.
The design of the motor is simple.. low tech. Less to fail in it.
Rods are decently beefy with large journals.
Series III (2004+) motors, use a powered metal connecting rods. *Suppose* to be better, but i'd stay away. Seen more bad results then good results with those.
I assume it was more of a cost cutting measure then anything, as not much had changed with the motors in forever.
It was said that the blocks had a high nickel content for the added strength.
No real good sites anymore on giving exact specs. http://www.clubgp.com/ use to have a lot of good info, but mostly buried probably over the years.
http://www.3800pro.com had some too, sort of a dead forum now, but possibly good info here and there.
I own the domain http://turbo3800.com that I've been wanting to setup as a site to gather and share info on easily. Just need to get a hosting domain
and start getting data posted up. I have crap spread over a few systems from over the years, and like to collect it to one site.
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Eventually. I don't have my car back from Triple Edge Performance yet as its been there since January.
Lots of one off parts and work being done to the transmission. Finally starting to see the end of the tunnel on that it looks.
Once car is back, my plan is to try and at least do a few races with the t67 at its max for me.. at around 24/25psi.. then move
onto the 7675.
I am hoping I get into the 9's nicely with the T67.
I'm planning on running the same L67 motor I'm gunna be doing a motor build up and its going in a rat rod. I'm really considering being awd on the build but I'm still collecting parts at this point but I have bought a 2000 gtp motor and pcm for 250$ with 130k miles. My goals are 450+hp in the car to be under 2600lbs empty which shouldn't be to hard considerin my Nash body is maybe 300 lbs all together with no glass. I'd like to be in the high nines and go from there
nice, doesn't take much to get 450+ hp. I have basically a stock short block with 200k miles.. nothing special done to be nearing 600whp when I last raced it last year.
I'd love to do some kind of small car build with the same setup im doing in my GP...
Are you running a turbo cam? I kinda want to take the motor apart balance the rotating assembly, like to try h beam rods and some mild head work. I'm used to tuning diesel pickups. Most of what I do is mechanical injection systems. The hardest thing for me is gunna be figuring out the data logging system and tuning as this will be my first time working on any gasser. Im a diesel mechanic by trade. So I've been soaking in the info on your threads
Yes running a ZZP st5 turbo cam. Very streetable. Car drives around very well.
Ill be honest.. if you dont plan on running 7000+ RPM or running 700whp daily, there is no need to touch the short block rotating assembly.
People have gone low 10's on basically stock heads with turbo, with just new springs is all.
Replacing the bolts/bearings/rings is about as far as I would go.. and I'd go just stock replacment if motor was basically in good working condition.
Only other thing is recommend disabling the balance shaft for the double roller.
HP Tuners is a choice on tuners.. or find an old DHP Powrtuner and software .. and use with Tiny tuner software for extra tables to edit.
If you can get e85 in your area, big A/A intercooler, you can push the stock internals very far.
ZZP went 8's on stock L67 short block.. so just something to think about.
I hear you about collecting parts and researching, Zeth. Due to limited funds, I've spent over a year prowling car forums, Craigslist and ebay looking for great deals. I'll be going e85 to start out with, too, until I get it tuned good with my hp tuner. Going to install an ST5 cam like jdredd. Might drop down to 92 octane and retune it if I find myself driving the car a lot but first things first.
I love the FBody intake, just its looks I guess.Greetings.. While not a GN nor the same 3.8, my turbo 3800 gets coupled/compared to the original.
Always been a huge GN fan. Growing up as a kid, my neighbor (rip) owned a GNX. Yes, not a knock
off, the real deal.
Anyways... keeping with the spirit of the 3.8 V6's and not having a GN, little over a year ago, started
a turbo grand prix project with my friend Sean. We had been drag racing his GTP for years, but
decided to pretty much retire it, and we both went in on this project. Picked up a $1000 beater
to start with.
Neither one of us are mechanics or anything. We never had
a turbo car or worked on one until started on this. So a new realm and a lot of learning.
Engine is a stock 200k + short block. Just had new bolts, bearings, rings put in.
Local heads, a turbo cam, and double roller. Nothing to crazy.
Using a mutt T67 turbo.
I had my doubts on the setup, but ended up smiling from ear to ear the first test drive
I got to do under boost. I knew instantly, this is gonna be fun.
We did a full year of racing this year with a lot of passes. Only things to break
was an intercooler bracket and a belt. Pretty good I'd say.
Transmission, while a lot of work and $ tossed into it, the converter slip was hurting
the top end. This is getting addressed over the winter. PI multi disc locking converter,
transbrake and two step... and some other goodies. Should proove interesting on the
learning curve to launch it. Just started to get under control too.
Best pass being a 10.41@132 with a 1.56 60' at 21 psi. Car is around 3000lbs
without a driver.
Not to shabby I'd like to think. 19-22 psi the car did not get much if any faster.
The converter slip just gets worse with more boost. After the new trans setup,
hopes are that we can max out the little T67 around 25-26 psi and get all the
power to the ground.
Only been to dyno once. This was at Cincy Speed. With a factory style fuel system,
with a racetronix pump. We started to go lean at 17psi, but managed 529whp.
GM High Tech Performance picked up on the dyno videos from Cincy Speed and
had them on their facebook page. Thought that was kinda neat.
Our buddy PRJ rewired the whole car for us. Removing everything that wasn't needed.
Jesus was there a lot of wires. Fuse box moved to dash under the air bag panel.
PCM located in glove box. Battery under front bumper.
He also did our full fuel cell and supply setup. Came out pretty good. Anyways Ill toss up some pics
of when the setup was in progress..
A lot of work from different people went into this. A bit of custom work. A lot of parts
we had to make up our selves.
Car when we picked it up from PRJ. Engine bay cleaned up very well moving all the
crap out of the way. Started and ran just fine. Some of his progress pics.
Cage work by Rogue Race Cars. Was their first FWD drag car job.
Front coil overs that PRJ gave us designs, and Sean machined the parts and came up
with these. This is a really nice setup, as the shocks can be pulled out and replace. Instead
of tossing the whole setup away like the ones available.
Aeromotive Eliminator fuel setup. Ya I know bad choice. But hoping we have issues
under control finally with it
Intercooler pipes we made and had tig welded for us. Only four couplers total. Less chance
of blowing crap apart. Took a few hours to do, but I think came out nicely.
Upper intake is off the 3800 fbody. Using a stock L67 throttle body adapted
to fit (drill and tap a hole is all).
Test fitting parts here. The cross over and downpipe I bought from a guy on a forum,
But they ended up not fitting worth a crap, and we ended up hacking it all up and redoing
it all. Kinda stunk, as wasted $ there. But it is what its....
Final engine bay shot of pretty much what it looks like currently.
May change up a little bit over the winter but not much.
Our last day at the track video...
Rest @ http://www.youtube.com/user/jdredd34
Sorry for the long book here, but thought maybe a few would find it interesting..
Come to find out a few guys at the track with GN's tend to have 3800 powered
beater cars and get a kick out of this turd.
Plans for 2014 is try and get into the 9's with the current engine/turbo setup.
The new transmission setup should hopefully let us get there.
So anyways, hope ya guys like it and that I didn't waste your time.
I was considering doing a Camaro/Firebird, but out of all that I test drove they were crap. Unlikely that I will find one worth buying.
Yah, I like the FBody intake alot myself. Just fits very nicely for the setup, works well, and cheap.
I thought of doing on myself. Missed out on a low mile rust free Texas one my boss sold two years back. I had about a days notice it was for sale... and it sold.
I have a spare 109, Grand National, motor being rebuilt right now. Once I get my GN in running and tuned, I have a SC Series II block that is being given to me from a guy at work. That will be my next project. My engine builder showed me a 3800 Series II block that he machined for a customer. He could build me a nice if needed. Hopefully I will be able to find a roller 84-87 Buick Regal and then start that project. Lots of work, I'm sure.
my motor is torn apart now. I made a royal goof up. SII block... using a SIII rear cover. But used the SII paper gasket. Apparently the SIII covers are pretty crummy and can warp. And their gaskets
are the metal+rubber kind. Well it leaked coolant into the oil. Not a TON... but enough to chew up bearings a little. So got the crank cleaned up 0.010 ... not to sure how I feel about that as never been
a big fan of ever taking these things apart. Once apart and changing out bearings sizes, ect, it seems its very hit or miss to keeping together long.Will see how it goes. I dying to get to the track finally after
almost two years. Probably miss out this year and not get back till spring. I want my 9's ....
Cranks are damn tough. 800whp isn't a problem as long as the tune is good. I've been 8.81@158 so far using a stock (not even machined) crank and block. Just forged pistons and china rods. The cross bolted mains and deep block design is very strong. As you stated the only issue is the head sealing for Numbers 3 and 4. Adding the extra studs is a fix but I haven't done that yet. With a good tune you will see 9s easy with that turbo.
