Turbo V6 Camaro

[Jon Early]

Sadly, I don't have closed loop anymore. Dyno Brian locked my long terms at 0. According to my notes, I have NGK BR7EF plugs gapped to 0.020". Sounds like I'm a bit tight for 10 psi. lol I'll do some more playing tonight since I'm motivated now.

 

[dezldave961]

I have closed loop, just using STFT's during that time with 0 LTFT, so it still adjusts moderately for normal driving and indicates any issues with big numbers. I'd guess Brian did something similar, dunno.

I'm running NGK 8's with decent success so far, but was always on AL103's and AR103's with similar gap. 20 seems like a gap for a guy running 30+ or spraying the house down. You should gain some mpg's opening that, too.

 

[Jon Early]

Ahh okay. Yes, I do have closed loop then because I have changing short terms. I just don't know when it transitions from open to closed. is that something I can monitor in HP?

My MPGs SUCK. I went a week of driving back and forth to work (mostly highway with 55mph limits) without really getting on it last year and calculated something despicable like 18 MPG, so that alone is motivation to pull the plugs and open them up a bit.

Brian made me run to the store to grab those NGKs and gap them to 0.020" because he doesn't like Autolites and I was getting pretty bad blowout right from the start. However, that gap suggestion was made before we knew I would be limited to 10 psi due to weak valve springs. I'm sure it would do fine with a bigger gap.

 

[Jon Early]

I went to Napa after work yesterday to grab a new crank sensor. My cam sensor is supposed to come in today, but whatever. My current one looks gross but appears to work fine. Anyway, I replaced the crank sensor, started it up, and it ran way worse. So I almost guarantee that my harness works just well as it looks. I was pretty bummed about that because I haven't been doing too well with wiring projects lately, and fixing a 19 year old harness is rarely sustainable.

When I started doing preliminary research on pigtails and repairs I found Dorman 645-688. I had no idea that this entire section was detachable from the main harness! Thanks GM! Suddenly, this fix is not very daunting at all, and I should be on the road tomorrow! We'll see.

 

[Jon Early]

The part stores have it wrong. This section of harness is not the same on F-bodies. It is all part of the main harness which makes repairs a bit more involved.

I did find something though. This is the power wire for both the cam and crank sensors.

After some cutting, soldering, shrink tubing, and re-looming I had brand new pig tails installed for the crank and cam sensors.

This didn't fix the car either. Since that exposed part sat right next to the block without loom, I thought for sure it would run great. All hope is not lost though. The car runs differently from before. It's just not good. I'm not sure what to do next. I'm thinking about making a couple chains of zip ties that wrap around the ICM harness and a couple other spots so that I can wiggle them while the engine is running. If it freaks out, I'll know that it's time to pull this whole harness out.

 

[Jon Early]

I figured it out!!!

After the last test drive my front crank seal started puking oil, so I replaced it. That's when I finally found out why the balancer felt so sloppy.

It appears that I drove the balancer home in a hurry not realizing that it wasn't engaged with the key. This would basically bring everything in the ECM out of time without a CEL. I removed a good key from my spare engine, let's hope I can pop this damaged one out just as easily. I have another timing gear on deck too if necessary

.

 

[Jon Early]

After stripping the front of the engine down again, I got to deal with extracting the stuck timing gear. It wasn't as bad as thought it would be though.

Yep! That's not right.

New on top and old on bottom.

The air hammer with a pointed attachment did good work on the flattened key. Reassembly is now as easy as tapping the new key into place, and reinstalling everything else as designed. I decided to stop here for the night though. I'm not too scared of reusing the gasket but I'm out of coolant. Half of it spilled onto the floor and into the oil pan so I'll need to do another oil change too. Let's hope this thing finally runs flawlessly tonight.

 

[Jon Early]

I got the car back together and went for what I consider to be the first REAL drive with the TKX. Part of me is incredibly excited because I kicked the 275s sideways around a few corners and paid no regard to third gear's well being. The other part of me is bummed that I can't "just enjoy it" as I planned.

That smoke will be a relatively easy fix. My oil feed fitting is leaking for some reason and doesn't want to stay tight. I may need to switch to a flange style fitting instead of the NPT to AN adapter I'm using now.

While I'm able to drive the car around town and even give it some light beans without issue, it won't tolerate full throttle. It still breaks up in boost and high rpm. One time it was even bad enough to back fire through the turbo and blow off my inlet tube. I think it's time to start the diagnostic process all over again. I have a fresh set of plugs I can throw in. I might have to try a spare ICM swap and coils after that. Fun times.

 

[Jon Early]

FIXED! The car needed plugs. I also opened the gap up to .030" in hopes that they'll last longer. I won't be pushing enough boost to warrant .020" for a long time. This car is such an animal with the LS6 springs. It revs with 0 complaints now, and I can power shift this sucker with 0 regard for a T5s life.

 

[dezldave961]

Awesome, ya when these things finally decide to work, it's a blast.

 

[Jon Early]

I got married on the 13th. The night before I decided to grow a pair and celebrate with a bit of smoke. The results were pretty spectacular! Thanks, line lock.

Those are some pretty damn nice lines for an open diff!

 

[Jon Early]

Car has been sitting. I'm not really motivated to replace the rear main seal, and I don't really like smelling like oil all day after driving the car to work. lol In the mean time, I've been sniffing up ebay/marketplace deals. I love finding brand new parts I want for less than brand new prices!

Supposedly you can't even get double rollers right now due to shortages, so I feel EXTRA lucky there. Speaking of which, I went into a rabbit hole when I started researching how to install double rollers. Is there anything wrong with installing the timing set the same way ZZP shows it in their video? A more experienced 3800 nerd than myself suggested ditching the thick gasket and machined cover. Instead, have the timing gears machined so that they fit correctly with the crank snout. Apparently the US crank snout is a little bit beefier than the Aussies', so the crank gear can't be pressed on as far it's supposed to go. It needs a bigger chamfer. This also apparently leads to premature chain failure since it's not lined up enough with the cam gear. While it makes sense and sounds logical, I just don't know about all that. I haven't installed a double roller myself, but I've seen tons of newbs do it the simple ZZP way. I've also never heard or seen any complaint about a broken Rollmaster. While I believe that the machining method works and is actually a better fix, I don't entirely understand what needs to be done. I don't want to end up needing a new timing set because of a mistake of a misunderstanding I had.

 

[dezldave961]

As the guy who actually broke a double chain 15yrs ago and made a post on ClubGP that blew up this issue... Machining the gears/etc. is not necessary and a thick gasket does the trick. The cranks are identical unless someone shows pics of a chamfered vs. filleted nose (all 3800's were built in Flint and shipped everywhere, if that gives you some context).

Rollmaster machined a chamfer because it was easier than a convex curve, and they align just fine with the cam. The chains don't wear out due to misalignment, they can float the crank gear out enough to rub the front cover at the oil pump and eventually weaken the links (I can find my old photos).

Rear main (and front seal) is something I'm regretting not doing this last round, after working so much to make sure the top was sealed. Might cause me to swap in my blower engine next summer, after I hit a number with this one.

TLDR - install things the way the company telling you about a $10 fix they use on 1,000's of engines works... Not whatever goober is trying to use FB-level knowledge (I've heard nightmares about that crowd's level of "info" since CGP died).

 

[Jon Early]

As the guy who actually broke a double chain 15yrs ago and made a post on ClubGP that blew up this issue... Machining the gears/etc. is not necessary and a thick gasket does the trick. The cranks are identical unless someone shows pics of a chamfered vs. filleted nose (all 3800's were built in Flint and shipped everywhere, if that gives you some context).

Rollmaster machined a chamfer because it was easier than a convex curve, and they align just fine with the cam. The chains don't wear out due to misalignment, they can float the crank gear out enough to rub the front cover at the oil pump and eventually weaken the links (I can find my old photos).

Rear main (and front seal) is something I'm regretting not doing this last round, after working so much to make sure the top was sealed. Might cause me to swap in my blower engine next summer, after I hit a number with this one.

TLDR - install things the way the company telling you about a $10 fix they use on 1,000's of engines works... Not whatever goober is trying to use FB-level knowledge (I've heard nightmares about that crowd's level of "info" since CGP died).

Was that one of the JP chains? I only know about those because of my last two days of research. lol

All this makes a lot more sense to me. I would think that if Rollmaster made an error like that and for some reason didn't fix it, ZZP would sell it already machined with their own box. The only reason I even entertained the machining idea was because the guy suggesting it was another pretty big name from back in the Club GP days. He has a bunch of long old forum posts. I don't want to bash him or even throw his name out there because he has overall been a massive help getting me where I am. I just have to pick which of his ideas are worth my time or not because he has no problem keeping cars off the road for very long periods of time. I think a lot of his methods have merit, but also won't make a single bit of difference in power or reliability for anybody repeating them. This seems to be a shared quality among a few of the more ambitious 3800 guys I talk to and it's hard to get answers without a bunch of long-winded theories. lol

Anyway, thanks for the reassurance. I'm gonna stick with my gut and install as instructed. The 3800 community is definitely tainted with a ton folklore since the creation of "3800 PERFORMANCE" on Facebook. For a while, the confident parts changers severely outnumbered the actual gurus so bad that educated answers to complicated topics were generally met with ridicule. It still happens today. The best topic recently has been how high static compression and high boost are not a possible combination. (lol) It's fun to watch.

 

[dezldave961]

If it's the TurboSBC guy in Chicago, he's a great guy... but it's a bit of a prima dona move to claim anyone outside a machine shop with the engine and parts in-hand with infinite time, should worry about chucking Rollmaster gears in a lathe without supplying exact numbers and proof to the world with such advice. There's simple ways that can be tracked for knowing if advice is valid or not (open forums and comment-able YT videos have much better scrutiny than hidden DM's and fading feed posts, which is why CGP going down halted the progress of these cars).

I might have to toss my L26 with MP112 back in a car just to post videos next summer to feed the trolls. The ZZP old timers (Tim, etc.) discuss sometimes how people struggle to match numbers reached 15-20yrs ago. Part of that is the short amount of time people spend optimizing a build before moving on, the other part they don't mention is some of the kept "secrets" that maxxed a setup (safely or not) to snag a number.

For Rollmasters, I've got duals in both my turbo and blower engines, and just refreshed the turbo's chain with another IWIS one I got from AUS eBay last summer for ~$60. Hunted down the part number, link style info, and counted my chain 2-3x to be sure. Also, their gears are machined a little tight, so don't hesitate to open the I.D. a couple thousandths, if you're having trouble pushing them on (mine was beyond press fit for my cam before light sanding/polishing).

 

[Jon Early]

lol.... mayyyybe! I wish I wasn't in high school during the old days. I even had a 3800 car that I wanted to play with. I just didn't have the money or knowledge to be turning wrenches! Now that I finally have enough experience to be dangerous, it's hard to get information. It would be nice to have more of those gurus to bs with and pick their brains, but I totally get why a lot have left and don't care to come back. The community kinda went to shit once these cars started getting really cheap. I'd guess that's about when CGP died too. Dyno Brian was really cool to talk to once his coffee kicked in. I got the whole life story of Intense and how it's just a shell of what it once was. He seems a bit bitter about that and I would be too if I was in his position. He must have liked me though because he eventually called up Scott Cook for some advice on how far to push my L36 while it was still strapped down. That made me feel pretty special.

The advice I was given at that time was to upgrade my head sealing methods once I got my valves under control. I currently have stock L36 everything, but my plan was to go with ZZP head studs (already in my stash) and L67 head gaskets. Dave, do you you use stock gaskets in your engines or do you go for the MLS? I know MLS is more difficult to seal, but I'm more concerned about not having a cheap fuse if something goes wrong. I'd rather replace a gasket than a short block! Thanks for your help!

 

[dezldave961]

The Cometic MLS's were notoriously difficult to keep sealed as you crank it up, even with studs. The ZZP MLS's are much friendlier based on how hard I've pushed the past couple years. I've also had trouble sealing big boost on stock/felpro gaskets with studs, because the clamping force seems to be more reliant on the full surface than just the fire ring on the gaskets. Most of this comes from when I was constantly rebuilding the top end of the Stattama turbo Impala week after week while MattM was turning that thing up for the kid who owned it back in '05-06.
(Edit: one of my buddies bought an o-ring'd block from ZZP that he's able to run felpro's on, but that was from one of their shop cars back in '06-07.)

Brian seems like a decent dude, but I think throwing in with Cook was his best/worst choice. Scott seemed like a guy that would sell his soul for a quick buck and claim to a record for marketing purposes. Zoom and crew are maybe 5% better than that, at most, but the minimal interactions I had with both during the early 2000's as a college newbie are what I had. Now, I just pay attention to the ZZP podcast, when the Ecoturd guys let the adults talk, and read background things on the 3800pro forum I am the only "old timer" regularly on (Brian dips a toe to brag on a Vette that came across his rollers every 6mo).

It's sad that the cheapness of 3800 cars makes them less desirable now, for solid upgrading, especially when we finally got the parts and knowledge universally out there by ~2008-10 on how to get routine 500+hp builds from stock block setups.

 

[Jon Early]

Interesting!

I wonder if the platform could ever rise back up to where it was. We have a lot less aftermarket support than the turbo Buick community had even at it's lowest point. However, there was time around the first boom of 3800s that Syclones and Grand Nationals could be bought in respectable condition for pretty cheap too. I'm happy to see that ZZP is at least a coming out with new stuff to keep 3800s barely relevant, but we need some smaller outfits to rise up and send it to another level. I think 4T80E swap kits, plug and play Holley harnesses, and more F-body support would create a solid boost in enthusiasm. An inclusive event with drag racing would help a lot too. I'm certainly not driving up to MI just to sit in a parking lot and look at painted engine covers. lol I'm dreaming though.

 

[Jon Early]

Hmmm.... a lot of these merged pictures aren't even mine let alone relevant to my thread, but at least the words are here! I'll have to look at my pictures since December and see what all I fixed/improved. lol I have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Jon Early]

I reviewed my last few posts and compared with my google photos only to realize that I don't have a lot of actual updates to post since December. The most exciting news is probably just that I've been driving the car a lot. Finally! I had a summer of straight beating on this thing and finding the weak points. It's also been on some long trips where I figured out how much it sucks to drive. lol

Let's see If I can give you all the cliff notes version what happened this year.

It all started with the coining of a new nick name which it still holds today. "Smokey" has been embarrassing me on and off all year. To make a long story short, I pulled my hair out for a couple months, and came up with a silly test. A vacuum pump on my valve cover fitting was able to make an audible leak from the very top of oil pan fitting (not visible). While keeping the vacuum on the crankcase I squirted some RTV up there and drove smoke-free through most of the spring and summer.

This wasn't the only leak but it was the main culprit since it dripped onto the exhaust. In hopes of trying to fix the smoke I replaced the oil pan gasket twice and completely redid the turbo drain hose with expensive stuff. No more hard line.

Then I finally felt victorious enough in repairs to make an improvement. It was time to grow up and get a full exhaust.

....but I wasn't about to go through that until I knew that the downpipe was in its final form. I already knew that it wasn't. It was ugly and I knew it wouldn't clear a BMR strut tower brace. I bought the brace (black not available through BMR) painted it and got to work on making yet another downpipe.

As you can see, I painted my old driver side valve cover all black to replace my passenger VC. Where my downpipe runs, an oil fill cap was not going to help. Now I just fill the oil through my catch can fitting with a funnel.

Without the fill cap in the way, I had a nice opening for a 3" pipe.

and back to the rear where I had been dreading this awful sight for years.