used hyd roller cam springs... LS1 beehive's?

[Blazer406]

Looking to buy some springs to go hyd roller..... Comp's website lists a spring... that is a stock replacement for an LS1.... a.k.a. the "beehive". The also list another spring (which according to my brother who used to work at comp)... that is an upgrade spring for an LS1.... also a beehive.

Haven't done it yet... but was considering looking for a used set of stock LS1 springs.... ie someone that had a LS1 car and went solid roller and had to upgrade springs.....

My theory is that any hyd roller I choose....would be real mild and should live fine behind a stock set of LS1 springs.

Any thoughts?

 

[Blown&Injected]

Must know the installed height and spring open and closed pressure, and the spring rate.

When going to the Beehive spring on my car the closed pressure was more than recommended but the open pressure was right on. All the folks that said that the closed pressure was too much changed their tune to say it will be fine as is using the 10* locks and retainers.

 

[Mike Licht]

The installed height will be worng, the spring will be too weak and the valves will float. This is a common problem on LS1 cars with stock springs and our valvetrain is heavier which needs more spring
Mike

 

[750H.P.V6]

I agree with Mike. It's sort of funny that ALL the aftermarket LS1 heads don't come with beehive springs but Buick guys want to jump on the band wagon since they're the newest thing to try.

Neal

The installed height will be worng, the spring will be too weak and the valves will float. This is a common problem on LS1 cars with stock springs and our valvetrain is heavier which needs more spring
Mike

 

[Blazer406]

I agree with Mike. It's sort of funny that ALL the aftermarket LS1 heads don't come with beehive springs but Buick guys want to jump on the band wagon since they're the newest thing to try.

Neal

I don't know about "Buick guys want to jump on the band wagon since they're the newest thing to try."

I was making an observation that when you buy a hydraulic roller cam for your GN, the contents of the base kit (per Comp's online catalog) specs stock replacement springs for an LS1. The "preferred" spring is an upgraded "beehive" spring... also for the LS1.

I however agree with Mike (after some thought) that the LS1 sodium filled valves and related hardware are probably lighter.... and potentially could cause valve float if used on the older heavier GN valvetrain. I still question why Comp specs it if it is going to let the valves float....???

Mike,

Do you think this would still occurr on a low RPM hyd roller setup.... ie 5500 RPM max power?

 

[Mike Licht]

Some of the stock LS1 springs are 68 PSI on the seat. I just don't see that working no matter what. If you are looking for a less expensive solution than the beehives I would look at the K-Motion K750 or the Comp 941 both will work and usually install with stock retainers and locks
Mike

 

[PhilM]

I'm putting some CC beehives in my HFT cam setup... think seat is 140# @1.75 inst height.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=122749

As for jumping on a bandwagon or something, well, these springs are better technology with less singular frequency harmonics, eliminating the need for an internal damper.

Also I cannot fit a large spring on the stock heads as they strike rockers. The beehives have a smaller diamter top retainer.

Phil

 

[DonnieShort]

I'm putting some CC beehives in my HFT cam setup... think seat is 140# @1.75 inst height.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=122749

As for jumping on a bandwagon or something, well, these springs are better technology with less singular frequency harmonics, eliminating the need for an internal damper.

Also I cannot fit a large spring on the stock heads as they strike rockers. The beehives have a smaller diamter top retainer.

Phil

Wouldn't that spring pressure be too much for a flat tappet cam?
Here's some more info.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145601&highlight=roller+lifters

 

[750H.P.V6]

Yes.

Neal

Wouldn't that spring pressure be too much for a flat tappet cam?

 

[750H.P.V6]

Donnie,

To answer your question in a word YES. Even on a solid flat tappet cam 140 psi seat pressure would be too high.

Neal

Wouldn't that spring pressure be too much for a flat tappet cam?

Sorry for the double post I don't have the ability to Delete the first one.

 

[Blazer406]

Wouldn't that spring pressure be too much for a flat tappet cam?
Here's some more info.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145601&highlight=roller+lifters

oops.... I'm a putz.... don't mind me...... :frown:

 

[DonnieShort]

Donnie,

To answer your question in a word YES. Even on a solid flat tappet cam 140 psi seat pressure would be too high.

Neal



Sorry for the double post I don't have the ability to Delete the first one.

I thought so.

 

[PhilM]

Nope, been done.

But 140 is about the general consensus for the limit on a HFT... also, I'm running a little less than that with some different retainers & pocket cutting. Also, it depends on the cam profile and lift, which is disclosed information.

In any case, I am still very borderline on getting a HR cut, I already had this one ground so I'm kinda partial and would hate to waste it... If I put her in there and she wipes, ill be sure to let ya'll know then ill pop a HR in there and get mending.

Phil

 

[NJVetteGuy]

If you want a set to try, I can look through my stuff and find you a set of LS1 or LS2 springs for you to test. As far as the stock LS1 springs, the earlier years start to float around 5700 with a stock cam. The later ones that came in my GTO did not float until over 6200. I'm running a set of Manley Nextek duals in the GTO now with titanium retainers and have no float up to my rev limit of 7000 with a 224-228 114 LSA cam with .591 lift. An important thing with the beehives is not to wind the car out until your oil temp is at least 150 degrees, the springs tend to fatigue if run at higher RPMs while below or above their operating temperature range. I've replaced many sets for customers who did not grasp the concept, after modifying their driving habits slightly they got a lot of mileage out of their replacement sets. The Comp 918s are a good LS1 upgrade and hold up to decent size cams, but the larger cams have more valvespring longevity with a good set of duals.

 

[750H.P.V6]

Phil,

Is it true to say you are actually running your hydraulic flat tappet cam with this much spring pressure or are you planning on doing so?

Neal

Nope, been done.

But 140 is about the general consensus for the limit on a HFT... also, I'm running a little less than that with some different retainers & pocket cutting. Also, it depends on the cam profile and lift, which is disclosed information.

In any case, I am still very borderline on getting a HR cut, I already had this one ground so I'm kinda partial and would hate to waste it... If I put her in there and she wipes, ill be sure to let ya'll know then ill pop a HR in there and get mending.

Phil

 

[PhilM]

Planning on it, its not quite going to be 140 though, more like 130 seat. I will be breaking it in on the old springs, which are ~ 100#ers. But like I said, there's 2 9s engines running HFT's with around 140 on the seat that seem to work fine I was told over and over, however, that proper break-in must be ensured before moving to the heavier monsters - if a lifter stops spinning, your screwed... but thats true with any cam, just a matter of the time it lasts.

Phil

 

[JeffG]

Donnie,
To answer your question in a word YES. Even on a solid flat tappet cam 140 psi seat pressure would be too high.
Neal


Neal,
Why is 140lbs seat pressure too much? Shouldn't the concern be around nose pressure and not seat pressure? I had always been told the more seat pressure you can run the better, as long as the nose pressure is was not excessive. The more seat pressure the less bounce off of the seat....which is a good thing. High nose pressures will cause a hyd lifter to collapse, and also wipe out lobes...a bad thing. Just trying to understand what you have seen because theory only goes so far.
thx,

 

[750H.P.V6]

Donnie,

You're on the right track. The open pressure is inferred from the seat pressure. Typically if you have a spring with 135 to 140 lbs of seat pressure the open pressure will be around 350 + or -. There are many variables and without checking out the actual parts at the actual lift it's a SWAG. 350 open pressure on a flat tappet is to high and will lead to premature cam / lifter wear. The possibility of excess spring pressure colapsing the hydraulic plunger is a secondary concern.

Neal

Donnie,
To answer your question in a word YES. Even on a solid flat tappet cam 140 psi seat pressure would be too high.
Neal


Neal,
Why is 140lbs seat pressure too much? Shouldn't the concern be around nose pressure and not seat pressure? I had always been told the more seat pressure you can run the better, as long as the nose pressure is was not excessive. The more seat pressure the less bounce off of the seat....which is a good thing. High nose pressures will cause a hyd lifter to collapse, and also wipe out lobes...a bad thing. Just trying to understand what you have seen because theory only goes so far.
thx,

 

[JeffG]

Okay, thanks for that info Neal. That is exactly why I run the 918's on my hyd roller. The spring rate on the Beehives are not nearly as steep as a K-motion 750 or like spring (i think I had Comp 941's on there before). It allowed me to run over 135 on the seat and about 325 at the nose. Seemed a much better deal then the dual spring set up.
Thx again,

 

[750H.P.V6]

Jeff,

Sorry for calling Donnie above. I got confused. Must be getting old.

Neal

Okay, thanks for that info Neal. That is exactly why I run the 918's on my hyd roller. The spring rate on the Beehives are not nearly as steep as a K-motion 750 or like spring (i think I had Comp 941's on there before). It allowed me to run over 135 on the seat and about 325 at the nose. Seemed a much better deal then the dual spring set up.
Thx again,